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Help on a vary vary larg bid

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by trimmasters, Apr 5, 2000.

  1. trimmasters

    trimmasters Junior Member
    Messages: 5

    Hi Guys <p>I am farly new to this form and I have a chance to land the job that could put me ahead, <p>I need help as to what I would bid for approximately 1 million square feet of plowing, No this is not a joke, but a vary large national company that wants a bid<br>What I would like to get is a price range per square foot. most is vary flat and they provide the salt. approxmently 500,000 sq ft is half full of semi tralers that would not normaly need plowed under, but if it bad they will pull them out and we would plow under them 1 by 1. this part i will bid by the hour because there is no way to tell how long this will take. <p>i will also need to bid for loader snow removal, this I think would be best by the hour also. how much an hour?<p>What i was thinking of for equiment was <p>1 f650 dump with 12' plow tailgate spreader<br>2 f250 with with 8 foot plows.<p>Thank you vary much <p>John W Bell
     
  2. GeoffD

    GeoffD PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,266

    Ok Equipment wise you are set up ok. I would get v-plows on those pick ups if it was me. Now your 650, if you don't have a plow on it yet, get a 10'. With the 10' blade you can make longer runs. Just note the F 650 is 2wd, even with weight there are sometimes traction problems. So the bigger the blade the harder to get started, i have a 10' blade on my 650 works great. <p>I would suggest if you have the funds and equipment, a snowpusher. Only if you don't you should be able to do the job with what ya have. I can't and won't give you a cost to plow the place with out seeing it. I think you will need some sourt of loader, to do the job right. Either have someone you know, do the loader work, or find your own loader. <p>I would tell the company this, this would be my plan. I plow the lot that has no trailers, sand/salt. Then they move all the other trailers and plow/sand in salt. The reason is, because i wouldn't want any ice build up around those trucks and trailers. Once it's there and in the shade of the traiers, i may not melt fast. So if you have to plow, and there is ice everywhere it's going to suck. They might not be able to move their trailers if the ice gets really bad, and then they are yelling at you.<p>My advice plow the whole lot every time. Sell them on that, yes it will cost more, but you can tell them they will never have a problem moving their trailers all winter long. That right there is worth the extra money. <p>I have never plowed a trailer truck lot, so i wouldn't know how to give you an exact cost. Or how this would fly with the company.<p>Loader Work, i hear some guys get in the area of 100-175 and hour. Depends on urgency, location, and amount of trafic.<p>If you are only going to use the tailgate spreader at that location only, then you will be all set. I would want to have to drive up the hills we have in maine with a dump body up. I would suggest a double acting body from frink if you can get one for a F 650 not sure, or a V-box.<p>What do you currently have for equipment? <p>I would advise useing as much of your existing equipment as possible. Big accounts are nice like that, only i would go out a buy a lot of new and expensive stuff for one account. I have been plowing with over 6 trucks ( i consider that commercial) for over 10 years, the 30K pick up doesn't bother me, but that 80K backhoe kinda makes me think hard.<p>Yes you will have a contract regarding that you will have the job for a year. Only if they don't want you anymore, they will be able to get out of it. Any nation wide company has a legal department the size of the a Wall Mart store. I bet their lawyers can make yours look like a fool. I mean you probably have a good lawyer, but when a big company onces out of a snowplowing contract, they can and will get out of it.<p>My Snowplowing combo. <br>Ford Truck, Diamond Plow when blade size is 8', 8.5, or 9', Swenson v-box, Fisher plow when i want a 10' blade or v-plow. I would also say if you are putting plows on F 250, get the 8.5 blade, the 8' is too small for the ford's turning radius.<p>Geoff<br>
     
  3. n y snow pros

    n y snow pros Senior Member
    Messages: 246

    Welcome to the forum,i am off to chicago but i will give you a few thoughts real quick.If the lot is flat and square or rectangle with not to many nooks and crannys,forget all the trucks.we do lots like this and you need to think about loaders with pusher boxes.1 decent size loader(2.5 to3yd) with a 16ft pusher box can do the work of 5 loaders.use your trucks for sanding and the small more difficult plow areas on the site. Ill will try to add to your post when i come back,oh and get the company to spray there salt pile it will make life much easier for you. <p>----------<br>J PARKER<br>914-485-4200
     
  4. trimmasters

    trimmasters Junior Member
    Messages: 5

    Thanks for the replies, Just to let you know i just got in to plowing this past year.<br>The equiment i have is just my 99 3/4 ton chevy with an 8' blade. I only did a few drivways and some fast foods so this is all new to me. is there a formula to figure out productivity with an 8 foot plow so I can figure out how long it takes so i can come up with a price, I only have till friday.<p>Thanks, John Bell
     
  5. GeoffD

    GeoffD PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,266

    It's not simple to come up with &quot;formulas&quot; plowing is a business that is un like any other. Sometimes i can plow 5 achers in 2 hours, other times it take 4. It depends on the type of snow, type of area. If you are just getting into plowing i might want to pass on that job, just because you might want to gain some more experience. Anyways I will say this yes the loaders are nice, but if you don't have the funds to buy them, use the trucks and you can do the job just fine. The 650 with a 10' blade, and 2 F 250s i would use a 350 if it was my choice, with v-plows should work fine for you. Then maybe later you can start adding loaders.<p>Best of luck. Can't give ya a price with out seeing it, sorry.<p>This May Help:<p>Truck Plow Open Area closed<br>F 2-350 8' 88,000 42,500<br>F 3-550 9' 67,500 30,000<br>F 6-760 10' 67,500 Don't try it<p>Ok i got this from my diamond snowplow book. Those are the number of square feet cleared on average in an hour. Now i think the 9' numbers are off, because i think they are for a 2wd truck. These figures are for clearing 6&quot; of snow with an average opperator. <p>Maybe that helps, best of luck. Try to sell them on plowing the whole lot everytime. <p>Geoff<br>
     
  6. Lazer

    Lazer Senior Member
    Messages: 399

    You lease a loader and buy/lease a pusher box.
     
  7. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    First Join SIMA. The Snow and Ice Management Association. As a memeber help with pricing is part of the perks. Next forget the trucks, with what they will be paying,you will be able to lease the boxes and loaders. Next sell them on the fact that every minute a truck cannot get in or out they lose$$$$. <br>Next figure out how long it will take to clear the place once, multiply by the total # of times you will have to do this in a season and sell a seasonal price. MY guess would be in the 10's of thouseands to maybe as much as 100k per season, depending on annual snow fall.<br>Unforntuantely they is no set per sq ft price in snow removal. Reason is to many variables, and with the production rate of the new pusher boxes, all the #'s would be way off. If you price the job by the hour, you will not make the $$ you should be making.<br>You also need to ask, why are they changing service companies. Are they new to the area? NY Snow pros is working for a co, that is southern based, they have no idea what snow remoavl will cost. If you are in the same boat, play that angle. They have no point of reference. If they are price shopping, then find out why. If they just want lower costs, then dont take it. Also remember you are taking a huge leap from drives and small commercial to huge industrial. You may make alot of $$ but if you are wrong on the bid, you will probably go out of business. That is why $165.00 for a sima membership is pocket change to get help for this type of property. They have members that manage sites this large for a morning snack.<br>www.sima.org<br>also go back through older posts and feel free to call any of us, and we will be able to go into more detail on bidding this porperty.<br>Dino <p>----------<br> Professional Ice and Snow Management <br>Products:Services:Equipment www.sima.org
     
  8. trimmasters

    trimmasters Junior Member
    Messages: 5

    Thanks for all the help<p>1 they did the snow work in house last year. they had 3 3/4 ton trucks with boss v plows<p>2 there is no room for a snow pusher, to many trucks that cant park worth a crap.<br>some rows are only ten feet wide<p>3 The good news is they have extendid the bid due date 1 week<p>All for now,<br>John
     
  9. Alan

    Alan PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,393

    I think I'd be a little scared jumpintg into such a big site after only a year in the plowing business. What's worse is that depending on how much coordination is required (and achieved) between you and the customer it could turn into a real pissing contest. I would definately try to get help in figuring the cost and negotiating terms of the contract from someone who is familiar with this sort of site. Just out of curiousity, why are they looking at outsourcing it now? Could they just be using the bid process to establish their own budget for snow removal?
     
  10. trimmasters

    trimmasters Junior Member
    Messages: 5

    Alan, no they are not just geting a buget to go by, as they sold all there equiment and have know time to do it themselves, they cant find the help, I cant imagine that!
     
  11. yortengel

    yortengel Senior Member
    Messages: 123

    I plow some smaller lots. I often base my price on $60.00 per hour for Truck and Me.(driver). I have been lucky. I have been able to bid on a couple a lots after I had allready plowed them. During a big storm they don't ask price. If it took an hour to plow the first time. Then I get $60.00 for the lot each time I plow. Here in Detroit the snows have been lite. I charge by the plow. Not by the season. I also always improve on the times with a second or third plow. I still get $60.00 each time. If the snow is deep I stick with the same price. I don't change it for a lite snow. Now being an auto tech, We got $60.00 a flat rate hour. this is how I came up with $60.00. None of my customers have complained. Maybe I'm to cheap. But I don't have much over head. and its not my regular job. Plus I use the truck as my everyday driver.<br>PS. $60.00 an hour is not what the tech gets. The shop always gets the Loins Share.
     
  12. Deere John

    Deere John Senior Member
    Messages: 410

    Now that we are talking hourly rates, I thought I would add my comments. The job seems intimidating at first. The trailers parked helter/skelter complicates matters more. When I look at a job, I base the price on receiving $110-125.00 /hour for my truck and time. You may say B.S., and other readers may too, but if you figure the captial cost of the rig that must be recovered over a short plowing season, the rate is not high, it is required. Part B of my pricing equation is to figure my time and then add 15% for Profit and Risk. I am rarely turned down, and most people notice you were there, not how long I was there. Regards<br><p>----------<br>JWM<br>
     
  13. yortengel

    yortengel Senior Member
    Messages: 123

    What kind of rig do you run? <br>How deep are your average snow falls?
     
  14. ADMServices

    ADMServices Member
    Messages: 43

    The larger the corporation the longer it takes to get payed (usually). Keep this in mind with working out the contract. If your not prepared net 45 and net 90 days can kill you really quick. Just a thought!<p>Andy<br>www.admservices.com
     
  15. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    JWM is right on target with his hourly rates. Also what is your average yearly snowfall? That will depend alot on your per push rates in my book. If you get only 3-5 runs per season your price should be higher than if you get 20-30 runs per season as you will make more on volume.<br>Also you will make alot more money if you charge per push, reason why. If it takes the first time say 5 hrs to clear the facility, and you charge 100 per hr, you make $500.<br>If you, after 2-3 storm reduce that time by say 25%, you still get that $500. If you charge by the hour, you are now making 25% less money.<br>By the hour doesnt pay in the long run. It is just an easy way out used by people who dont know how to price snow work.(no offense meant to anyone that uses this method)<br>John from NY snow pros and I have talked at length on this subject and he has some very good ideas at how to price large facilities. Give him or I a call and we will be glad to share these ideas with you. Of course if you had joined SIMA you would already have the info. I cannot express enough how much knowledge is avaiable through this orginization.John is back from Chicago and I am anxious to read his thoughts on this subject.<br>Also they do have 8 and 10' box pushers, or take an older 8-9' plow with bottom trip and box the sides yourself. You will be amazed at the time you save. Unless you go per hour and then get 6' so you will make more money.<br>Also get a stainless spreader if you are applying salt, steel will be toast in 3 yrs unless you have the piles sprayed with magic -0, and make sure all you plows have urethane edges. It also sounds like a skid steer with a 8' box pusher would kick a** on this site. <br>Dino <br> <p>----------<br> Professional Ice and Snow Management <br>Products:Services:Equipment www.sima.org
     
  16. GeoffD

    GeoffD PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,266

    well i have given my $ 0.02 worth, best of luck man. I might now plow the big lots, but i have plow a few mountains in my day, and know how to get the job done. Wish we had lots of lots like this Maine, i think there might be one or two.<p>The Biggest one i plow is less than 20 achers.<p>Geoff<p>
     
  17. cutntrim

    cutntrim PlowSite.com - Veteran
    Messages: 248

    John,<p>The other guys have made some good suggestions equipment-wise. I have one suggestion and that is to bid a seasonal price. This way you don't have to worry about how much or how little snow you'll get. You'll be getting a set amount per month (eg. Nov. 15 - Apr. 15) and can budget yourself accordingly. This will allow you to lease/rent the additional equipment you might feel you need, Ie. loader or skid-steer w/pusher box.<p>----------<br>Dave in S.Ontario<br>www.cutntrim.com
     
  18. n y snow pros

    n y snow pros Senior Member
    Messages: 246

    John, i just got back from Chicago where i bought a tanker truck for Magic to spray roadways,but thats another story.It seems like you got alot of good advive and i was going to add to the list of how toos,but the 1 piece of advice which someone has already given you and i want to agrre 200% with is get a bit more experience under your belt before going after a large commercial.If you have only done driveways try a few small commercial accounts next year and experience the differience from driveways.Its not hard they are just different and you are going to have situations that you would not have with driveways.taking this step will help you gain experience and confidence in your plowing.once you have learned to plow safely and efficently commercially you will understand this - when plowing commercially only amatures back up! backing up is for driveways.Join sima and i will explain what i mean by this.Coming to this sight and asking for other opinions is a great start in the right direction.<p>----------<br>J PARKER<br>914-485-4200
     
  19. n y snow pros

    n y snow pros Senior Member
    Messages: 246

    John i inadvertantly erased your message on my answering machine and did not get your tel number so leave me another message and i will get right back to you,sorry about that<p>----------<br>J PARKER<br>914-485-4200