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E47 Power Angleing Problem

Discussion in 'Meyer / Diamond Products Discussion' started by gseinc57, Mar 15, 2007.

  1. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26

    Hey guys, when i parked the plow 30 days ago everything worked just fine, when I went to move the rig today the first thing I noticed was it did not lift as high as it usually does by 2"
    and it would not angle left or right so the first thing I did was to check the fluid and found it to be full, then checked the coils for magnitisim that checked o.k., it goes up and down fine and the pump seems to run ok, but I also noticed that the moldboard goes up less and less each time it is cycled, if I let it set for a hour or so it will go up higher the first couple of times I cycle it, and it will at least move an inch or two to the left or right angle the first time I try it after sitting for a hour or so, but after a couple cycles, it wont budge left or right again, and I am rather sure the pump is operating correctley, I unbolted the power angleing cylinders and the moldboard moves back and forth freeley, and I also tried power angleing from the toggle in the cab with the left and right cylinders unbolted and they work just fine like that, so I drained the unit and took it off and to the bench and removed and cleaned the crossover relif valve all the parts came out ok except the cage and the 2 o rings behind it, I had a hook in the hole of the cage and it would rock back and forth a little but would not come out, so I went ahead and blew the cavity clean with compressed air and reassembled and bolted it on and filled with fluid and it does exactley what it did before,,, no left or right and goes up less with each cycle,
    what is it that opens up, and lets the retracting cyclinder bled its hyd pressure off, while the cylinder thats extending is filling, because whatever that part is, and I thought it was the crossover relif, it must be blocking the return of fluid, just how it is interfearing with the up problem I am not sure ,, so what did I miss ???, what am I over looking ?? I have ran every test and cross test I can think of, if I did not know better I would say something is blocked but what ??? I am just a green horn to this business , so I am scratching my head, but one of you vetrans probley know exactley what what is going on

    any thoughts would be appreciated Thank's Greg ,,, Boise Idaho
     
  2. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Greg, the first thing you need to do it get a pressure gage on the pump and see what the pump pressure is. This will give you an indication of the condition of the pump and the pressure relief valve. If the pump won't develop at least 1300psi, (spec is 1650psi) you'll chase your tail trying to figure it out. Did you find any water or ice at all when you had any of the component off the pump?
     
  3. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26


    No I did not find any water or ice as the weather here has been in the fifteys ever since I parked it and after I flushed it out and refilled it with new fluid a month ago everything worked fine, at least for the 20 or 30 up and down cycles and the 20 or 30 left and right cycles, it worked great so I parked it waiting for the snow to come which never did, and now its spring here, and no more snow is coming so thats why I was moving the plow to get ready to put the flush in it, to store for the summer when I found out that it had a problem, I just spoke to the meyer dealer here, and he wants the hyd unit to test the pressures like you suggested but for the life of me I cannot figure out what happened between the time I parked it (working fine) and now, in talking to other people who own these meyers, none of them have anything good to say about the meyers brand plow, and I am beggining to agree, I have done nothing but put money and time into this plow and it's always broke, is this typical of this brand ???


    Greg
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2007
  4. lawnmedic

    lawnmedic Senior Member
    Messages: 703

    I run Meyer units. I have friends and others that run both Meyer and others such as Boss, Western, Fisher and Snow way. I have bought all of my units used so I don't know the history on them prior to me buying them. I do know that I have no more repairs on my units than the other companies I network with. All units will have problems if not maintained. If you have an e-47 I would assume it is several years old.
    I assisted two smaller plowers this winter then they had breakdowns, a Boss V and a Western.
     
  5. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26

    hey B &B

    You said to check the pump pressure, could you tell me where to check that pressure?
    to what do I hook a pressure gauge to, or is there a threaded test hole on the unit?
    and how does 20 degrees outside air temp affect pump pressure to the point of either working or not working, in my mind i am thinking how could the pump check valve be affected by a lousy 20 degrees??, a slight temp change should not affect the check ball or the seat unless the seat and check ball are made of 2 different materials, like aluminum and steel or something like that, and even then I am not sure, or a better question would be how does a slight temp change of 20 degrees possibley affect pump pressure, even if the pump is wore out?, if the pump is wore out it should be the same in 32 degrees as it is in 50 degrees, I could understand if the temp was 90 degrees and it acted up but, no theory I have formulated in my mind warrants any action at this time, but I would like to see what those pressures are during its acting up as well as when its working as designed.
     
  6. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    The reason I mentioned to start with checking the pump pressure is usually when you have a problem with a Meyer pump, it's either it wont lift/lower OR it won't angle left/right. But yours has BOTH problems which leads me to suspect a pressure problem due to either a worn pump or even a weak motor.The easiest way to check the pump pressure is to "tee" a pressure gage into either one of the angle hoses.Then, angle the plow fully until it hits the angle stop and while continuing to run the pump, read the pressure on the gage. I had an old E47 that did exactly what yours is doing once. It wouldn't work unless it was cold out. After I checked the output pressure I discovered that as the temps got warmer the pump pressure got lower due to the fluid viscosity changing with the temp and with the worn out pump it couldn't develop enough pressure. It would make about 1400 psi when it was real cold out but at 50 degrees it was only putting out about 500-600 psi. After doing nothing but replacing the gear pump it worked perfectly.
     
  7. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26

    gseinc57

    Thanks B&B, I appreciate your input, That theory makes some kind of since to me , better than the dealer telling me to buy a Boss if I wanted to plow in 50 degree wheather,
    I would not think that 20degrees would make that much differance but you never know, I am almost afraid to take the pump to the dealer, do I have to do that ?? , how difficult is it to repair or replace that pump, do I buy the hole thing remanned, or do I just replace a set of gears in the pump or ? , and I wonder if the problem SPARKY 10 was having a day or so ago with his E-47 could be whats wrong with mine , maybe mine has 2 problems, his sounded alot like mine, I am going to flush the system tommorow, maybe I should check the pump pressure as you suggested before I store it for the winter.
     
  8. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Glad to help bud, I would definitely check the pressure output before I did anything else. If it does end up needing a new gear pump you can replace just the pump part itself. This is the square shaped casting that's directly under the motor. Its held on with three stud's and nut and there's no reason you couldn't replace it yourself. Their's a couple O- rings and a check valve between it and the sump base but it's still not hard to do. If you do replace the pump, make sure you recheck the pressure again and set it to the factory spec of 1650psi. Be sure and post back after you check the press on your old pump if it turns out that it's OK and makes consistent pressure at all temps and maybe we can help you with further diagnosis.:)
     
  9. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26

    gseinc57

    Hey B & B

    Well heres the scoop, I replaced both couplers just to make sure, bought pressure gauge and teed in to angle hose, made up a switch so I could operate the works from the front of the truck and watch the gauge and the workings, when the outside air temp was approx
    45 degrees the max pump pressure was 1200 psi againist its left or right stop, but it only takes 600 to 700 psi to angle the moldboard wheather starting from the center or far right or far left, so that means it really only takes 700 psi max to angle the moldboard, and when this thing screws up which it did during this testing of the pressures after 10 cycles or so, I noted that the gauge was reading the 1200 psi wheather I was trying to angle to left or to right, starting from center or a far stop and the moldboard would not move , the pump was obviousley running fine the voltage at the motor was 11.5 during a cycle on, ?????? so since you said min pressure was 1450 psi I assumed the pump or check valve, so I drained and tore down, found electric motor had a little grease in it so cleaned everything in the motor and reassembled it, took the pump off and found that the pump gears looked new, not a scratch on them and the cavity or sump and cover plate was very clean, so I went on to the check valve and found that the steel ball on the check valve was wore flat on two sides and I thought bingo that is it, pressure is slipping by the check ball, so I ran all over town to find the 9/32nds ball and reinstalled everything and and rechecked the pressures in 37 degree wheather and 50 degree wheather and everything is the same as before, max pressure is 1200psi , 700 max psi to move the moldboard to either stop, and the moldboard stops working at about 45 degrees while the pump is putting out 1200psi trying to move it and as before the moldboard will go up but only to about 80 % of its max height, and if you stop and think about it, it should not be going up at all when it wont angle because it should take more pressure to lift 950 lbs of steel than to angle the moldboard at 700psi, so thats it, I am at a loss, the hydrallic mechanic where I got the check ball told me that I could consider running an additive in the oil to thicken it just a smidge which would increase the pump pressure, but even then its not the real cause of whats going on, the thing I dont understand at this point is it takes only 700 psi max to move the moldboard left or right and very quickley at that, and when it wont move at all the pump is making 1200 psi and both are below specs, but why would you need 1650 psi when 700 does just fine, I do not know what the pressure is during the up mode when it lifts all the way or just goes 80 % but my guess is 700 or 800 psi so why is 1650 needed, probley when moveing snow those pressures would need to be higher, so there you have it B & B , what a meyers cluster ----- any ideas??? do you run only meyers iol or is there something else out there that is ok to run and does not cost 12.50 per quart at my dealer ??? or is there an additive that the mechanic suggested that is ok to run ??

    thank's, " frustrated in Boise" Greg
     
  10. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Sound like you really did your homework on it. First, after your discovered that the pump was putting out 1200psi, did you try to adjust the pressure relief valve to see if the pressure would come up to spec? (1650psi)Second, the ball you found damaged is only a check valve for the pump to prevent fluid from leaking back through the pump while it's idle, it won't affect the pressure output, in fact, I'm surprised it did'nt leak down with the ball worn flat in two spots. If it won't angle, even with 1200psi of pressure, then something else is wrong too.Could be it's traveling over center due to the center pivot bolt wear (very common on the Meyer blades) Will it angle ok back and forth as long as you don't go all the way to the stops?
     
  11. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26

    gseinc57

    B & B

    o.k. yes I did try to adjust the pump output pressure by removing the acorn nut on the pump relif valve and unlocking the lock nut and then turning the slotted adjustment screw both directions but only 1/2 of a turn in each direction, and I got no change in the pressure reading and so I returned it to the postion I found it in, I was not sure how far I should turn it or in which direction, do you know how far would be reasonable and in what direction??
    Also I removed both angleing cyclinders when I had the unit apart on the bench and checked to see if there was any binding in the hoop, sector or anything else, and I can move the moldboard all the way to both stops with one finger and back again with no problem. And the angleing problem starts at center, when the blade is pointing stright ahead during these warm temps it wont move 1" either direction, and the moldboard will only go up to abput 80% of its height that it goes when the temp is 40 degrees or below, I did notice that when the angleing rams were off that the pivot hole must be worn a little bit as when I hit the left or right stop you can see the slop between the bolt and the hole but I do not think it is causeing any problems as the blade moves very easy from center or from either far stop, no I am afraid I am back to a head scratcher, if the pump moves the angleing cylinder at 700 psi but not at 1200 , what gives??, do you know anything about the fluid additive I asked about to increase the viscosity a smidge like the hydrallics mechanic suggested, ?? and do you run meyers ("special hyd m-1 oil") you know the stuff thats priced like gold, or do you run something cheaper that replaces or is the same as m-1 just not the meyers brand and if so is the viscosicty different.??

    Lost in the meyers maze, Greg, Boise Idaho
     
  12. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Greg, thats why I said before that you may have more than one problem going on with this pump. As to the pressure relief valve, turning it clockwise will raise the pressure but you should have noticed a change with a 1/2 turn. You can turn it more and see if it helps but I don't think it's gonna, as it still sounds like the gear pump is worn. Now for the angling part, you may have to disassemble the valve block and check/clean the crossover valve and the piston check valve as either of these could prevent it from angling in both directions, especially the piston check valve as they have a habit of wearing in the bore that they slide in (they're aluminum) and will not allow the fluid pressure to "shift" them in the bore which will then block the return path of the fluid out of the retracting angle cylinder. The only fluid additive I can think of that the hydraulic guy may have been talking about is a product made by Lucas and it's made just for hydraulic systems but shouldn't need any "additives" to make it work though as the pump should be more than capable of generating the needed pressure and adding anything else to the fluid would just be a "band aid" as far as I see it, it wont fix the root cause of the problem. As to a fluid type, theres no reason you have to use the genuine Meyer fluid if you don't want too. Any decent aftermarket plow oil will do the job just fine.
     
  13. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26

    gseinc57

    B & B

    I really appreciate all your input on this cluster ---- , when I had the pump gears out last week and found that bad check ball, I looked at the pump gears and houseing and the cover real good and they look bran new, not a scratch in them, so would the crossover valve affect the pump output pressure, I do not think so, so that means a pump gear can be worn out without any visable defects found on the gears ??, and as far as the piston check valve is concerned, I have checked that as well, it also is in good shape, no scratches, nicks or marrs and pops up and down in the bore smooth as glass, when I bought this plow in feburary the guy who sold it to me had just put a new valve body on it, its was nice and shiny and he showed me the reciept where he had bought it and was not happy about what he paid for it, as far as the hydrallic fluid is concerned, what I was asking was, these other brands of plow hydrallic fluid,, are they by chance a little thicker than the meyers oil??, but your right its a band aid, do you know where is the cheapest place to buy a new pump ? or a reman , or do they reman them ??, and does that pump come in its own houseing with a cover and the pressure relif valve already set or do they just sell the gears, because if its just the gears I would be a bit learry as I would prefer to have the hole thing replaced , especially if they bench test the works before they send them out, and what is the cost?? I would really be afraid to take this over to my dealer , because as I told you earlyier they said meyers are finkey and wont plow in warm wheather and if I wanted to plow in 50 degrees to buy a Boss, so any thing they tell me is suspect

    thank's Greg
     
  14. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Yes, the pump gears can look like brand new with no visible scoring or scrapes on the inside of the housing but the pump can still be worn enough to not make enough pressure due to leakage around the gears. I've replaced many pumps that looked fine after disassembling them but wouldn't make sufficient pressure while in use. As to replacing the pump, the gear pump comes complete with the gears, housing and a complete pressure relief assembly so you'll get everything you need. Pretty much all the different brands of plow fluid have the same viscosity so changing brands isn't likely to help you any.
     
  15. gseinc57

    gseinc57 Junior Member
    Messages: 26

    gseinc57

    Where can I buy a new or reman pump for the e-47 and what does one cost?? I do not want to go to the local dealer, as they have steered me wrong several times.
    any suggestions??
     
  16. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Check you PM's gseinc.
     
  17. MickiRig1

    MickiRig1 PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,617

    There are places to buy parts that will ship to you. If your not finicky about OEM parts you can buy stuff a lot cheaper. Central Parts Warehouse on the sponsor line above is one. MillSupply.Com is another. Angelo's is another. Search " Snow Plow Parts" on the INTERNET. The fluid really does not make a difference just buy good plow oil. I have seen people even use Hydraulic fluid and get a way with it. ( They did not know to use the right stuff ) Any Meyer plow My Dad or I have had works no matter what the temp. That's the first time I ever heard any one say that about a Meyer. I would think the slop in the gear fit and shaft bearings would would be the deciding factor in developing maintaining pressure.
    Don't give up the answers there somewhere. If it's not the pump, you now have a used spare.
    When my Wife gives me that " Your saving That For??"
    ( as She waves her Italian Hand in a circle )
    So I can get my Truck back in service on a Sunday evening snow storm with the spare I saved!
     
  18. MADSPEED

    MADSPEED Junior Member
    Messages: 9

    can you please send me that info as well?? Maybe needing a new E47 as well...:cry:
     
  19. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Speed, sine your a newbie, you don't have enough posts on here for your pm's to work (have to have 10 posts min) but if you want to post your email address, I'll send ya the info you need...
     
  20. MADSPEED

    MADSPEED Junior Member
    Messages: 9

    Well Garsh Darnit