1. Welcome to PlowSite. Notice a fresh look and new features? It’s now easier to share photos and videos, find popular topics fast, and enjoy expanded user profiles. If you have any questions, click HELP at the top or bottom of any page, or send an email to help@plowsite.com. We welcome your feedback.

    Dismiss Notice

convince me

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Maclawnco, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. Maclawnco

    Maclawnco Senior Member
    from OH
    Messages: 628

    I need to get another containment plow before winter hits. Im very familiar with the std avalanche/protech boxes. We use these on sub machines already.

    Im curious to know how I can justify this plow to myself in terms of dollars only. A new 16' protech is $4200. Iceman1 will sell me a 16HD *like new* for $7k. How do i justify the extra $2800? If we talk salt savings alone, it will have to save 35 tons over the life of it - or about 10 tons a year. The site this will be plowing has a salt budget of 40 tons a year. Is it reasonable to believe it will actually reduce salt usage by this amount - 25%?

    How else do you owners (not dealers) justify the increased purchase price of this plow?

    Have you found maintenance costs to increase too?
     
  2. xtreem3d

    xtreem3d PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,548

    since you said std pusher i am assumming you mean rubber edge. I don't look at it just in terms of salt savings , i first look in terms of having a much cleaner lot that the customer will hopefully recognize and i also never liked the idea of pushing a lot then salting it and having to leave to another property not knowing if it melted properly depending on how packed it had gotten (like during business hours). I think everyone will agree you will save some salt by using a steel edge but for me there is more to it, i just prefer to see mostly pavement before we leave. This is worst case but i feel i limit any slip and falls by using the better pushers
    Steve
     
  3. Mick76

    Mick76 2000 Club Member
    from Maine
    Messages: 2,157

    I own 3 of them.....

    If your lots are seasonal the sectionals will actually add to your bottom line...no question.... depending on your salt savings you might only break even with the first year but every year there after...and don't forget reduced labor costs by not have to "replow" the areas the the rubberedged couldn't get well.....cash in your pocket....

    Maint isn't really that much of an issue IF you have guys that DON'T treat them like a standard box pusher.... There is a learning curve to these things, if you have a sub use it, make sure he looks at arctics website for the proper operation of these containment plows.

    I had a pusher that had one of the earlier set of weak springs and I just this week replaced all of them.... I felt as though arctic should have replaced on their dime, but they gave them to me at cost.... not bad I guess but it took the better part of a day to replace them all......for the most part though, because the shoes and slip hitch are self leveling you get alot of wear (I'm on my 3rd season with the shoes and cutting edges) everything wears evenly.... I will need to replace at least one set of cutting edges after this season (they'll have about 600-650 hours on them by the end of this upcoming season)

    I wouldn't spend the extra cash on an arctic if your per application or per push. but for seasonal they're the only way to go

    I wish I would have taken a video last year of the hardpack that was just rolling off of these things with NO pretreatment... it bought a smile to my face knowing its money well spent

    good luck with your decision
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011
  4. johndeereguy

    johndeereguy Senior Member
    from Iowa
    Messages: 158

    I started with 1, then last year bought 6 more, and this week ordered 6 more. Is that convincing to you?
     
  5. Ne1

    Ne1 Senior Member
    Messages: 370

    They do scrape down to pavement. I have used them for two seasons and am debating wether or not to buy anymore. The only issue is maintenance. I dont care how careful your operators are and if they have watched the instructional video or not. There will be a night where you will be out replacing a broken rubber cutting block. With a standard pusher there's less worry and risk that the unit will be down due to maintenance.
     
  6. lndscpe

    lndscpe Member
    Messages: 55

    I am ordering up another 14 HD to run on our new loader for this year! this makes four different ones for us: 1-10LD, 12LD, 12HD and the new 14HD.
     
  7. RLM

    RLM PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,270

    I have a 14' HD, & like NE1 have found a significant amount of wear items, cutting edges last us about 100 hrs, sideplate wear shoes are worn out & need to be plated now @ about 250 hrs, we also bent two sideplates & two blocks pushing into a pile during a heavy wet snow. All that said on seasonal priced all inclusive lots THEY WILL SAVE YOU MONEY believe it or not they clean that well, I have rubber edge & an IST, and hands down the Artic gets the lots the cleanest. I do my salting so I see each lot once it is cleared, we also plow with it at a school district & there guts salt their lot & said the same thing. If it's not an all inclusive, you need to rework things or continue to charge client same (switch from per ton to trip if necessary), etc. If it is a client that is budget conscious & doesn't want salt, unless you can sell them that it cleans better, & get compensated for the increased cost don't bother. The fist year I figured it cost us about $ 20/ hour to run the Arctic as opposed to probably $ 5 / hr for a rubber edge. They do cost significantly more to run but that is easily offset in salt savings (I ve cut my usage by better than 50%, on lots we plow with it), less salt used also means less trips back to reload saving time. My concerns & reasons we don't have more have been parts avalablity isnt great here & long term durability after bending the sideplates the first year (BTW, same as other guy we had to repair ourselves, were sold parts @ cost). I have been told the parts issues & distribution will be taken care of shortly.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  8. dieseld

    dieseld Senior Member
    from 90210
    Messages: 628

    subscribing.
     
  9. Ne1

    Ne1 Senior Member
    Messages: 370

    It comes down to reliability. There is no question about it they do scrape down to the pavement. However, with so many moving parts there is without a doubt more maintenance and cost associated with these pushers. My pro-tec's have no problems and I know that they will be functional during a storm. JMO
     
  10. Mick76

    Mick76 2000 Club Member
    from Maine
    Messages: 2,157

    I've broken one block, one..... It was even me who broke it (my error), not my regular operators.... took literally 10 minutes to change in the field (4 bolts)... I'll take the cost savings anyday to deal with this type of issue ..... I also don't understand how I can get soooo many more hours out of my edged/sideplates then what some of you guys are stating....... I will say that new cutting edges and sideplates arn't cheap with these things but I'd take them ANYDAY over a Protec....
    When do you guys want to sell?...LOL
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  11. RLM

    RLM PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,270

    Not looking to sell mine, I have been fortunate I have found a couple used pushers at auctions so I have only had to buy one new Protec @ full price, to acomadate growth. Alot of the growth i have seen us in properties that we dont salt & at competive bids, so buying sectionals would do nothing more than cost me money. I'm waiting to see what happens, every season the pusher designs are changing, look at Boss or Avalanche they both have designs now similar to Artic, not exact but 3/4 of the way there, competition will force more competing pricing. I'm also looking to switch direction as large lots pricing keeps getting worse, so I don't feel as investing more into large pushers isn't the wisest move right now for me. My gut and from talking to other contractors tells me pricing hasn't bottomed out yet, construction companies with large equipment are fighting to stay a float which is going to make pricing on large lots get even worse.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2011
  12. Maclawnco

    Maclawnco Senior Member
    from OH
    Messages: 628

    Interesting points all. Thanks for taking a moment to share your experiences. I talked on the phone with another user and he said one of his operators tore a side panel off one of his LDs one storm.

    I love the concept but I dont make money playing mechanic nor do I even remotely enjoy it. I just dont see how a plow prone to 'wear' will save me money like its claimed.

    In my application, it is an all inclusive seasonal account. I very clearly see the need for a steel trip edge pusher. However, I am struggling to justify the upfront cost and increased maintenance for this design. Im leaning towards the Avalanche steel edge 400 with their lifetime warranty. Any final arguments?
     
  13. Mick76

    Mick76 2000 Club Member
    from Maine
    Messages: 2,157

    Maclawco
    Its your money, do with it as you please...
    Couple final notes.....Your operators CAN'T treat these things like standard boxes that have been around for years....if they're used to plowing with those and you don't fully train and get into their heads that they can't use them as such you'll likely have some of the problems listed above...... But if you do train them and hold them accountable for their actions I think you enjoy the results (both in your bottom line as well as the look of your lots).... I've had mine going on three years now and the only thing I've had to do (besides the spring replacement stated above this year) is replace a block... easy 10 minute fix in the field and your off and rinning again......
    I have no issues with maint... I'm going to have between 600-650 hours before the cutting edges need to be replaced (I can't speak fo the other guys, only my experience)... I think thats some pretty decent cash spent if you ask me.....
    If you so concerned about these things, try ONE for yourself for a year and see for yourslf if others will be worth the investment in the future
    This isn't a knock on the new avalanche 400 design but the scene where it contacted a curb corner and the steel trip edge tripped..... look at the rest of the pusher, it raised up allowing all that snow to get under and have to be replowed...... you wouldn't get that with the sectional... I also don't like the fact that it seems to have a ridged hitch.....these damn slip hitchs are the cats meow (Boss BX12 and Arctics design)
    Good luck with your choice!
     
  14. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    Like what Mick76 said, anything with a slip hitch and a steel cutting edge are going to scrap like night and day compared to any rubber edge. Artic and Boss are the only two that I know of. We had great luck with our BX12 so far and yes it saved us tons of salt because 9 out of 10 times it scraped right down to pavement, hence less salt used. Hard pack even scraps up 99% of the time. I thought Artic came down in price, 7k +???. Talk to Collin from Columbia Landscaping on here, he sells both Artic and Boss, thats where I got all my stuff last year...great prices.
     
  15. RLM

    RLM PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,270

    Artic went up, quite a bit, in their defense so did everyone else. Look up a price for a 8'6" x v fisher, I paid $ 5200 in Jan 10, there over 7 now
     
  16. Brian Young

    Brian Young PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,382

    5200 is a good deal compared to 5900 we just paid Wednesday! Add in curb guards and snow deflector......ouch!
     
  17. RLM

    RLM PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,270

    5200 was with the deflector like I said that was in Jan 2010, CPW gas it listed over 7k I believe now
     
  18. Maclawnco

    Maclawnco Senior Member
    from OH
    Messages: 628

    im convinced. Went to see Oberson's yesterday and put money down on a 16hd. Will pay/pick it up at the end of Oct. Looking forward to singing its praises soon....
     
  19. alsam116

    alsam116 Senior Member
    Messages: 217

    What are you putting behind a 16 footer? Whats anew one cost compared to his year old ones?

    he said the snow rolls so good off them a sub of his bought one for there other work if that helps convince you a little.GOOD LUCK, keep us posted if you dont mind.
     
  20. Maclawnco

    Maclawnco Senior Member
    from OH
    Messages: 628

    I think my sub is going to push it with a newer 644 deere. The used was about 30% off new pricing.