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Can a "Skid Steer Proof" Wooden Bulk Salt Bin be Built?

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by ChicagoSnow, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. ChicagoSnow

    ChicagoSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 231

    Hello,

    For the record, I really enjoy working with wood. Steel not so much.

    I am always up for a challenge as long as the end goal is worthy of the time invested.

    My question is: Can a wood framed structure be "stick built" to hold let's say 80 ton of bulk salt? The salt will be handled (pushed, stacked, scooped, etc.) by a S300 Bobcat. This should give you a good idea as to the level of structual stress that the wooden structure may face and the needed attachment when the Bobcat is "handling" the bulk salt. My goal is to build this structure inside of a steel warehouse, atop a well cured concrete floor(30 years +) and just below the 14' overhead clearance (just below the steel roof cross members).

    We have used outdoor bulk salt bins (concrete block with coverall roof) and a 53' shipping container but never anything wood based. Can it be done?

    We are just trying to maximize our available resources as best as possible.

    Thank you for your time and I look forward to any possibilities offered.

    Joe

    DCP_0059.(2).jpg

    53' Steel Container for Bulk Salt at Rand Rd. November 2009 015.jpg
     
  2. forestfireguy

    forestfireguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,276

    There was a guy advertising salt bins on the NJ craigslist. They were wood, pics weren't great but they looked like they were 6x6 structural members and true 2x6 walls with steel "runners" or "straps" bolted to the walls up to a height where a bucket might bite the wood if they were hit accidentally. Seemed like a pretty rugged set up, all of the sidewalls were rienforced with 6x6s every 5-6 feet and then on a 45 degree angle down from about 6 ft to the ground.
     
  3. elite1msmith

    elite1msmith 2000 Club Member
    from chicago
    Messages: 2,762

    seen it done with basicly a fence...didnt last super long, but they got a few years out of it, all depends on the operator. he cant "push" the salt....he can scoop it tho. it would have to be pinned into the floor, and id recomment having bracing on the back side

    i did see a guy do CMU blocks seemed to work well for him.
     
  4. ChicagoSnow

    ChicagoSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 231

    Thanks for the ideas....

    I think the wood approach will likely push the limits of my budget.

    Chain link fence.... never thought of that! I guess you could build the enclosure a little more substantial by using larger diameter posts. Maybe after the chain link has been stretched across the posts you could really just line the interior with tarping and change as torn. What do you think? What kind of mount do you need to attach the posts atop the concrete floor? I am not willing to cut/dig through the existing concrete floor.
     
  5. show-n-go

    show-n-go Senior Member
    Messages: 776

    At my buddy's shop he used the concrete blocks inside his shop.Just like your outdoor shelter.
     
  6. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    Chicago, if it's going to be inside, just bring in a load of blocks and be done with it. Salt can't hurt 'em, you can't hurt 'em, you can't move em, and you can easily reconfigure or disassemble the bin as needed. They're not terribly expensive at all, and we've built several bins for folks in the Chicago area. Being that it's going to be inside, coverage is not an issue. Wood lining works well, but to build a wooden bin--one mistake with a Bobcat and it's toast.

    LMK if we can help!
     
  7. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    (also, the lateral (spreading) load of the salt can easily tear the wooden bin apart. That's why DOTs use concrete bases with wooden roofs for their domes.)
     
  8. ChicagoSnow

    ChicagoSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 231

    I know what you mean.

    It looks like concrete blocks it will be. The only issue I was trying to avoid is the 2' of width I loose on each face of the bin. That's the beauty of the steel containers, sheet metal walls, but you get a roof (good or bad - all depends).

    Anyone know of a resource that will sell/truck these blocks to northern Illinois? Any idea of how much the notched top blocks go for now a day? Once a source is found, I will determine the length of blocks (weight) I will need. Some will be lifted with a lift truck (8K capacity - 6' ok) and the other blocks will have to be under 2,500lbs.(3' or less) so I can move them with a S250/S300 Bobcat.
     
  9. NW Snow Removal

    NW Snow Removal Senior Member
    Messages: 533

    as long as you dont need to go down hill you can easily load them with an s250. done it with over 200 blocks over the years all you need is chains and pallet forks, hell, you can even do it on the bucket. the blocks Im talking about are 3300 lbs and are the ones in your pic 2x2x6
     
  10. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    6 footers can be moved with a 'cat, but stacking is dicey. I tried with the S250 we had to use, but I couldn't get it high enough to stack 3 high. 6' weigh roughly 3K, and 3' 1500#. We haul for a ready mix company during the summer, so I have sources to get blocks locally. We typically truck 15 per load, and I can bring a small truck crane with 5 more for outside builds--crane makes it a very short affair. Price on 6' is roughly $50, 3" are around $25. Depending on where you are in Chicago, estimate $200 in freight. As long as they get off the truck quick, you wouldn't have any demurrage charges to factor in.

    :D
     
  11. NW Snow Removal

    NW Snow Removal Senior Member
    Messages: 533

    stacking three high isn't too hard unless its downhill. just gotta shorten the chains all the way down.
     
  12. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    Considering the S250 would nose over on flat ground...yeah it didn't work too well for me, lol. The first time that happens, you remember why you always wear your seat belt in a skid...heheh
     
  13. ChicagoSnow

    ChicagoSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 231

    Westhardt - Can you assist with the blocks? I will not need help to unload or stack, but just repeated deliveries.

    Any volume discounts?

    The bin will likely be a minimum 40' long and 12' across the back. 3 or 4 courses (4 ideally). The original bin planned was 65' deep but I think I will grow the bin as needed.

    NW - I don't know what type of counter weights you run on your S250's but ours could not lift a 6' block. Not even a little bit. The rear wheels would lift off the ground every time. We were trying to lift the highest course at the time, but I believe the machines are just not counterbalanced to handle the 6 footers (3,400lbs.). The 3 footers (yes - 1,700lbs.), but bigger that that.... I don't know.
     
  14. NW Snow Removal

    NW Snow Removal Senior Member
    Messages: 533

    like I said. done it over 200 times with an s250 now use a cat252b. I use the pallet forks and put the chains about 1 foot from the end and it works great. the closer to the skid the worse off you are.
     
  15. ChicagoSnow

    ChicagoSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 231

    NW - I'll take your word on it, but I think I'll try a 5K+ lift truck instead.
     
  16. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    Blocks are not a problem. I will check tomorrow to see how many are on the ground available. That sounds a lot like a bin I built in Schaumburg. 42' across the back, and 18' deep. 21 blocks for the back wall, and 12 each side--total 45 blocks. Held an easy 350 ton, tarped.

    You just let me know how many you need, where they are going, and when you need them. I'd post contact info, but I already got a waving finger for that since we are not yet a sponsor...PM please for that.

    :D
     
  17. ChicagoSnow

    ChicagoSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 231

    Westhardt - I will definitely let you know when I am ready. Thank you for the information!

    By the way, do the blocks mentioned have flat top/ends or are they notched?
     
  18. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    T&G--tongue and groove, so they lock together. Also, the blocks I use are pretty nice--no crap finish.

    LMK!!
     
  19. Westhardt Corp.

    Westhardt Corp. Senior Member
    Messages: 845

    Oh--keep in mind if you build this inside you have to consider you incoming material. If the trucks don't have the height to dump inside, you'll have the bale the material into the bin.

    Food for thought!!
     
  20. ChicagoSnow

    ChicagoSnow Senior Member
    Messages: 231

    I totally understand. There will be no way to dump inside. We have a paved area that will be the staging area for all incoming bulk loads.

    I see you are in the trucking business. Have you ever looked into a tailgate mounted conveyor/auger for your semi's? I am considering one for the truck I "want to have" - some day.

    Care to take a look at a web link that I found?