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Building an Electric Liquid Unit

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by BSDeality, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    I'm looking at completing my liquid unit for my Toyota. Currently have a custom mounted 60 gallon unit on a stainless steel platform with a 5.3GPM Delavan diaphragm pump. I use this in the summer months for another aspect of my business, but I want to convert it to ice control for the winter. The pump is "on demand". 3.8GPM @ 40PSI. I use a 1/2" pneumatic style quick connect in the summer. When I connect the fittings there is flow, as soon as I disconnect it stops. For the de-icing I need to add an electric solenoid valve to get that on-off control from the cab.

    I would like to have anti-icing and de-icing capabilities, this requires to sets of nozzles obviously. For Anti-Icing I believe I want 4 heads. 2 to spray behind the truck and one on each end of the boom to spray past the truck. This way I can select which nozzles are open depending on how wide I need to spray. less waste and overlap this way. To do this I will need 4 solenoids. (Dema - 1/4" MNPT 12V solenoid (Normally closed) $33/ea).

    For De-Icing I will need more heads but less configurations. I believe I will have 8 heads (12" spacing to give a working width of 7' directly behind the Toyota). I will feed this with a 1/2" and 1 solenoid. (Dema - 1/2" MNPT 12V solenoid (Normally Closed) $53/ea).

    Does this sound like a good starting point?

    tank-drawing.jpg
     
  2. jkitterman

    jkitterman Senior Member
    Messages: 140

    What is the material application rate? Will 60 gallons @ 3.8 gpm last long enough? When does the tank actually run dry, 90%?
     
  3. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    I get 99% out of a tank; there is a sump where the plumbing is. Also I don't do any major applications so I have no need for a larger setup yet. When that comes along I will outfit my F350 with a 350 gallon tank and a gas motor/pump setup.
     
  4. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    any one else have anything to add? Need to order parts tomorrow
     
  5. MMike

    MMike Junior Member
    Messages: 6

    Interesting post! Are you concerned about drift? How close to the ground are the spray nozzels? What about a remote hose or a remote hose port that would allow you to "plug in" and apply liquid deicer to areas inaccessable with the truck? A remote hose might also allow you to cirulate or drain the tank. just a thought.

    Are there any post and notify regulations with useing de-iceing chemicals similar to pesticides? I'm unfimiliar with deiceing chems.
     
  6. Grn Mtn

    Grn Mtn PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,644


    I believe its 22" off the ground is what most are set at (I don't remember the exact number but I know I am close). No regulations as of yet for deicing.

    Stateline, what was your final verdict with last winters liquid test? Were you able to find a distributor? or what type did you settle with?
     
  7. jkitterman

    jkitterman Senior Member
    Messages: 140

    For the 4 sprayer head config, do you need 4 solenoids? Could you do it with two. I would guess the the middle 2 heads will always be used together and the outside 2 heads would both be on together also if you wanted max width. Is that right? For the 8 head deicing, would you be reusing the 4 anti-icing heads with extra heads in between? Are you just doubling the application rate for deicing?
     
  8. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    MMike. Drift isn't the biggest concern I have but certainly possible. In theory I would be applying product before the storm gets there and hopefully there should be less/no wind at that time. If I was apply during a storm and high winds it would be with the solid stream nozzles. As for Height. It depends on what nozzles I go with and how I design the bar. I have 24" to the bottom of the bumper. 30" to the bed height. Where I place the bar will determine the nozzles.

    I want to keep it either below the bumper or sandwich it between the bumper and the body to protect it if I get rear ended and so I don't smash it up backing into something.

    Grn Mtn,
    I was very happy with the liquid tests I did. It seemed to work well in all conditions except when we had rain before hand. I was too late to apply. The Magic Salt did however work quite well since I was applying on top of a 1/4" of sleet and ice.

    My distributor is about a half hour ride unfortunately, but then again I don't plan on using a whole lot this year as I don't want to take on too much work. It's Scotts Landscaping in New Milford. Last years price was $2.50/Gal for Magic -0. I need to call later today and see what they have it priced at this year. I have two portable 65 Gallon tanks I can use plus my 60 gallon skid sprayer. With the Nurse tank I could do pile treatments for small outfits that have salt but no liquid capabilities. If the demand is there I will buy a 350Gal storage/nurse unit which I will then turn into a Skid Sprayer for the F350
     
  9. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    I suppose I could loose one solenoid in the middle two heads and jump to a bigger flow solenoid which would save about $10 of build cost. But that could cost me much more in over applied product if I found myself having to overlap 22-24" because I couldn't turn that other head off. It was a good idea at first, but I think I will stick to as much flexibility as possible.

    For the 8head de-icing I will using 8 different style heads. The anti-icing nozzles put out a fan spray. For De-Icing you need solid stream to concentrate the liquid. This burns through the snow or ice pack much better. I do not know what the gallons/1K Ft2 is for de-icing. But I will have to assume its a little more than the anti-icing application rate. All this is determined by nozzle selection and speed.

    I have to tune up the toyota first as its got a vacuum leak effecting the idle, but my plan is to apply in 2nd gear @ idle speed in 4x4low which is around 4mph. As soon as I get the idle fixed I will get that speed (gps) and work it into my calculations.
     
  10. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    here is my tank. It's a Fimco 60 Gallon mounted on a custom stainless steel skid. You can make out the plumbing coming out from the left center to the pump. The red line will be connected to the manifold. I still have pretty good visibility out the back window too. More pictures as the parts come in and I start assembling.

    Skid-sprayer.JPG
     
  11. mmaddox

    mmaddox Member
    Messages: 57

    Liquid application equipment

    The local A. E. Staley plant (now Tate & Lyle) has a product made from corn syrup that has been used for 2-3 years for anti-icing (applied before snowfall/freezing rain). We have been spraying it on with our floation applicator. It's wild to have six lanes of an Interstate closed and running down it with a 90 foot boom. Seems to work very well. The rate varied (depending on past applications and weather), I would guess the average to be around 4-5 gallons per acre. A 1800 gallon tank would about 40 miles of six lane road, more with a narrow roadbed. We used flood nozzles. No experience with usage as a de-icer. I would suggest you consider quick couplers to speed nozzle changes. Do you research on nozzles as to mount ht. and spray width (22" and 30" respectively are common on small nozzles) . Two nozzles should cover the truck width, and if you want/need to go wider, figure on some type of fold out boom. Really no need for an electric valve, use no-drip nozzle bodies (check valves that shut the flow off when it drops below a set pressure), and switch the pump on and off. Depending on what material you might be spraying, most of the electric, pilot operated valves will not work well with the heavier materials. Manually control the possible boom nozzles, you would probably be folding the booms by hand anyway. BTW, there are application monitors that would make setting the rate easier.
     
  12. GSE

    GSE Senior Member
    Messages: 108

    I'm quite new to liquids myself, but have done a ton of research in the offseason. The manufactures of the corn based products you mentioned all suggest about 1 gallon per 1000 sq ft. That's closer to 44 gallons per acre on average, and I believe that's for an anti-icing application.
     
  13. For Liquid Magic the rate is about 35 gals per acre. Caliber is similar with maybe a little more needed.
     
  14. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    I'm calibrating mine for 1250 Ft^2 per gallon for pre-treating. Still haven't decided what for de-icing. I guess it will depend on how bad conditions are really.
     
  15. mmaddox

    mmaddox Member
    Messages: 57

    Pre-treating

    We did run some rates at the higher volumes, all I did was spray the product on at the rates they spec'ed. I don't even know results. The lower rates were on dry pavement, after several treatments. We have not done any this, yet. I do knw that they (the State) has set up some plow trucks with dumps with poly tanks in the beds. Appears that tests are still being conducted, both with rates and equipment. I did notice that higher rates did tend to allow some run-off. Of course costs add up when comparing a lot to miles of road.
     
  16. hoosier

    hoosier Junior Member
    Messages: 14

    Just to make it interesting,Ill throw this in for everyone to chew on. After seeing the success of several of my customers using liquid products, I highly recommend streaming product instead of spraying. A piece of PVC pipe with 1/8" holes every 6" works very well.
    You can piggyback this with your spray bar and switch between the two.
    One advantage is with the streams 6' apart this leave a traction surface between streams until it can dehydrate.Another thing is you can get a better visual as you apply the product , to assure your not applying too much.one of my customers that has used this method the longest sez..'If it puddles your going to slow.if it skips your going too fast.. as long as you have a steady stream its JUST right' Not too technical,but his help seems to get along fine with it.
    Each product rate is different,we recommend 11-18 gal per lane mile for anti-icing (10 ' width) Rates very with ground temps,humidity ,and other conditions
    For mounting your bar,consider using your trailer hitch receiver. mount the bar on a frame that slides into receiver ,then stows away when not in use.
    Just my 2 cents
     
  17. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    my first thought was to go with a bar for the 2" receiver. There is just a nagging thought of me backing into a lightpole, snow/ice bank or getting clipped by another car and then being out of service because my bar is busted.

    I ordered a set of timbrens for the front and rear of the Toyota and a set for the rear of my F350 today too
     
  18. forestfireguy

    forestfireguy PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,276

    In speaking to some of the guys around the shop who have considerable exp. with liquids here is the way to apply. If you can count on traffic use stream nozzles for everything, your traffic will spread the product. If low traffic is likely use fan nozzles to apply for anti icing and stream nozzles for de-icing the idea being to get the product to the pavement. The idea is to prevent or break the bond between the snow/ icepack and the pavement so it can be scraped away by your plows/pushers. There is little melting quality to many liquids. Especially the non choride ones. I am new to the liquid game but this is my understanding thus far.
     
  19. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    Spent the last day playing with Excel and countless pdf's of nozzle tips and possibilities. I had looked at going to boomless and using a boominator nozzle or two, but I prefer flexibility and as little waste as possible since its such a small tank to start with. I think I am going to stick with my original design. with my combination of nozzle tips I have the ability to spray as little as 3'3" or as much as 17' 6" and 4 combinations in between. I can't get that flexibility out of a boomless setup without many different nozzles ($100+ ea!)

    I will be making an 80" Wet/Dry boom. The dry boom will be for anti-icing. I will use 2 SS-TP8008-EVS for the center tips. I will use 2 SS-0CSS12 tips for the outer tips. I will be able to achieve 70" throw from each outer tip, so I won't have to have a big boom like most trucks have. Each inner tip is rated @ .8 GPM @40psi which will be my spray pressure. The outer tips are 1.2 GPM x 2 = 2.4GPM, 2x.8 = 1.6GPM. My pump can sustain 3.8GPM indefinitely @ 40PSI. Spraying speed will be 3.5MPH (idle speed in 1st gear low, also by GPS). and I will drop the pressure down to 35PSI to maintain 4GPM

    Section #1 - 66", Section #2 - 39", Section #3 - 39", Section #4 - 66"

    This allows 6 combinations of spraying widths.
    1 - 17'6"
    2 - 12'
    3 - 8'9"
    4 - 6'6"
    5 - 5'6"
    6 - 3'3"

    I will have to play with the wet-boom end. Meaning the liquid will flow-through the boom (eliminating the need to buy tips once I find the right diameter hole to drill) Probably start with PVC since its cheaper than stainless steel, but I will drill some holes in it to make the de-icing streams. 80" boom with the ends. holes will be @ 0, 10,20,30,40,50,60,80" (more or less). I think I want to flow about 5GPM @10PSI out to be effective @ 3.5MPH
     
  20. BSDeality

    BSDeality Senior Member
    Messages: 736

    I Built the spray bar, mounted it on a stainless steel sheet to a pintle hook plate. This will make truck-swapping easy (if I ever move it). I used some .5gpm tip's to do the tests (what I had available at the time) and by golly it does work! I still need to make the wet-boom aspect, but that isn't as important to me right now.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a trial run, I made more adjustments after taking this picture to take care of the under -spray in the center. I ran out of "dry" driveway to test on, so I don't have any updated pictures. That was with only the two center heads on. 80* tips, .5gpm, 3.5mph. 24" off the ground. The outside heads also have 80* tips in them for the time being since I didn't have any off-center tips handy. I currently have them turned off with manual ball valves and both centers are on.

    [​IMG]

    The tip holders I bought automatically turn off @ 10PSI so when I turn off the pump it turns off the tips almost instantly. I will add the solenoids when they come in next week so I can control the width of the spray from the cab on the fly.

    Heres a shot of the whole thing with the fisher mounted up. Timbrens make a big difference. There is 30 gallons (240lbs) of water in the tank for the test plus 65 for the tank and a full fuel tank.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2006