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Brickman & Target Lot

16K views 91 replies 41 participants last post by  PhilFromErie 
#1 ·
Anyone else on here plow for as a sub for Brickman at a Target store? I'm a small operation and one of their reps just contacted me with a rush request to bid on a local Target at a seasonal rate. He tells me to use NOAA 30 year average to calculate my costs. I told him forget that, it has snowed more frequently the last 5 years probably due to global warming so that 30 year average is skewed.

Does anyone who does commercial work in Chicago area know how many times they went out last season? It seemed like February we were out every day with nuisance snows salting. These guys want us little guys to take a huge risk and offer a low flat rate for the season. How do you guys even begin to calculate the costs with so many variables?

I'd love to get into larger commercial work but it could put me out of business in a hurry if it snows more than what you calculate and they are slow or no-payers. How good is Brickman about paying?
 
#79 ·
I have a Lowes I am doing through Brickman and so far, so good. The checks have been on time and no other issues or hassles. As of right now, it has been a GREAT first 2 months.So far, I have only salted 2 times, and a very small amount of salt each time. I know the last 4 could really make up for it though. At this point, it would have to dump some really record snowfalls for me to get anywhere close to breaking even. In other words, this year is lots of $$ in the bank.

Knock on wood, as next year could bite me hard in the a$$, because my guess is that they will try and lowball me with the price. I could see the old "Well, last year it hardly snowed and we expect the same thing this year, so the initial offering is lower"

I will walk away if that happens. If nothing else, I can tell you already that next years rate will be higher than this one when hits their desks, certainly NOT lower!

The other problem we will ALL have in the next year or two is the fact that the amount of slip and fall lawsuits are getting out of control and the insurance CO's are all changing their underwriting guidelines. The one CO I sell for now has a questionnaire that MUST be filled out for any contractor that does any type of snow removal. If the customer does commercial work of any kind, it then asks for the size of the lots being cleared. If that lot is connected to any large big box store, the application is rejected (at least for the plowing coverage).

Another CO is in the process of changing their application too, as they had 3 big losses in one year from one particular large store. You guess who that store is? It won't be hard........they are the biggest. I can't mention their name, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.

I may not be able to even bid on any large seasonals next year, as the insurance CO I have is one who is changing their guidelines. I am an agent and I may not be able to find anyone who will give me the coverage!. Maybe I should put it this way, "There will always be a CO that will offer it, but can you afford to pay the premiums and still stay in business?" That will be the question
 
#81 ·
I know the Target here went cheap, didn't hear an exact number but it is being plowed by a old Gehl skidloader with a dirt bucket, and an early 90's F-150 with an old Meyer straight blade that looks like it's going to lose a tire the front is so bad... They salt it with a push spreader!
 
#83 ·
Our entire business and customer base is located in an area of multiple small towns and much rural countryside. There are precious few big box stores, but every town (over 3,000 pop) obviously has a WalMart, CVS, Walgreens or other national chain retailer. The occasional Lowes, Target, Home Depot, and other large retailers may be seen. They are no temptation for us, and we routinely turn down their requests to bid.

Many years ago...in the days of John Allin and his badly-conceived group...we contracted to plow a local CVS. The usual documentation processes existed and were followed. The work went off without a hitch. The local GM was satisfied, and all was well for a few years. Then suddenly came the need to re-bid every job for them every year. Suddenly 20-30 days turned into 45-60+. The paper and phone trail became more intensive. The demands increased to the point of absurdity. While evaluating this situation one dry winter day, I realized something: "I'm giving this customer more mental attention than any other. 75% of the effort there is to please the store, and 25% is just to get paid and maintain the account. This customer has insidiously pushed to the front of our priority list, while actually being one of our least rewarding". About this same time I was contacted by Snow Management and asked to bid on an entire region of CVS stores. After much evaluation and discussion, the decision came down to me. I declined to bid, or to get further mixed into a recipe where we were simply an ingredient.

Remarkably, Allin's company (this is all well documented) developed severe financial heartburn soon after. Their antacid of choice?....Refuse to pay outstanding accounts. One of those accounts was ours, and I was of course...not happy. The path I pursued resulted in a 100% final payment and no money lost. No legal fees or suits happened, but they could have developed. His ship went down and took some others with it, but ours had already cut the lines and set sail.

That was the last time we ever worked in a subcontractor capacity for anyone. I determined right then that our future would not be built upon the foundation of some major contractor or maintenance company. I've told many companies since then that we'll do 1:1 business with them, but not as an "agent". We don't need that level of aggravation or risk. We DO need a level of trust and dependability with our customers. Our prompt-payment, long term customers absolutely get priority service from us...as they should. Why would I give that to an entity which wants 1) the lowest price, 2) yearly bidding, 3) fast, priority response, 4) excessive documentation, and 5) slow payment terms? Game-players, strategists and deadbeats get eliminated quickly around here.

I learned a long time ago that cancer is a spreading disease, and I'll not invite it inside my company.
 
#85 ·
Second Nature;1402900 said:
Our entire business and customer base is located in an area of multiple small towns and much rural countryside. There are precious few big box stores, but every town (over 3,000 pop) obviously has a WalMart, CVS, Walgreens or other national chain retailer. The occasional Lowes, Target, Home Depot, and other large retailers may be seen. They are no temptation for us, and we routinely turn down their requests to bid.

Many years ago...in the days of John Allin and his badly-conceived group...we contracted to plow a local CVS. The usual documentation processes existed and were followed. The work went off without a hitch. The local GM was satisfied, and all was well for a few years. Then suddenly came the need to re-bid every job for them every year. Suddenly 20-30 days turned into 45-60+. The paper and phone trail became more intensive. The demands increased to the point of absurdity. While evaluating this situation one dry winter day, I realized something: "I'm giving this customer more mental attention than any other. 75% of the effort there is to please the store, and 25% is just to get paid and maintain the account. This customer has insidiously pushed to the front of our priority list, while actually being one of our least rewarding". About this same time I was contacted by Snow Management and asked to bid on an entire region of CVS stores. After much evaluation and discussion, the decision came down to me. I declined to bid, or to get further mixed into a recipe where we were simply an ingredient.

Remarkably, Allin's company (this is all well documented) developed severe financial heartburn soon after. Their antacid of choice?....Refuse to pay outstanding accounts. One of those accounts was ours, and I was of course...not happy. The path I pursued resulted in a 100% final payment and no money lost. No legal fees or suits happened, but they could have developed. His ship went down and took some others with it, but ours had already cut the lines and set sail.

That was the last time we ever worked in a subcontractor capacity for anyone. I determined right then that our future would not be built upon the foundation of some major contractor or maintenance company. I've told many companies since then that we'll do 1:1 business with them, but not as an "agent". We don't need that level of aggravation or risk. We DO need a level of trust and dependability with our customers. Our prompt-payment, long term customers absolutely get priority service from us...as they should. Why would I give that to an entity which wants 1) the lowest price, 2) yearly bidding, 3) fast, priority response, 4) excessive documentation, and 5) slow payment terms? Game-players, strategists and deadbeats get eliminated quickly around here.

I learned a long time ago that cancer is a spreading disease, and I'll not invite it inside my company.
Thumbs Up :drinkup: :drinkup: Thumbs Up
 
#88 ·
Italiano67;1402905 said:
What is irritating is the prices that these box stores went for this year and the geniuses that took them are lucking out. How is the prices ever going to where they need to be now?
It will come back to bite them. It is inevitable that a year will come where they have bid low and we get record snow. Once that happens, they will keep plowing until they run out of $$ to keep the plows running and the salt flowing. The national will find out the hard way by the sub not showing up or returning phone calls when a storm hits.

The national will then have to pay someone else to do the work (or bring their own trucks in). My guess is that they will keep a running tab and then bill the sub who backed out at the end of the season. If the sub doesn't have enough $$ to even finish the contract, I doubt they will have anything worth taking if sued?

Anyway, this will have to happen on a large scale for the prices, policies and tactics of the big management COs to change?
 
#89 ·
Second Nature;1402900 said:
Our entire business and customer base is located in an area of multiple small towns and much rural countryside. There are precious few big box stores, but every town (over 3,000 pop) obviously has a WalMart, CVS, Walgreens or other national chain retailer. The occasional Lowes, Target, Home Depot, and other large retailers may be seen. They are no temptation for us, and we routinely turn down their requests to bid.

Many years ago...in the days of John Allin and his badly-conceived group...we contracted to plow a local CVS. The usual documentation processes existed and were followed. The work went off without a hitch. The local GM was satisfied, and all was well for a few years. Then suddenly came the need to re-bid every job for them every year. Suddenly 20-30 days turned into 45-60+. The paper and phone trail became more intensive. The demands increased to the point of absurdity. While evaluating this situation one dry winter day, I realized something: "I'm giving this customer more mental attention than any other. 75% of the effort there is to please the store, and 25% is just to get paid and maintain the account. This customer has insidiously pushed to the front of our priority list, while actually being one of our least rewarding". About this same time I was contacted by Snow Management and asked to bid on an entire region of CVS stores. After much evaluation and discussion, the decision came down to me. I declined to bid, or to get further mixed into a recipe where we were simply an ingredient.

Remarkably, Allin's company (this is all well documented) developed severe financial heartburn soon after. Their antacid of choice?....Refuse to pay outstanding accounts. One of those accounts was ours, and I was of course...not happy. The path I pursued resulted in a 100% final payment and no money lost. No legal fees or suits happened, but they could have developed. His ship went down and took some others with it, but ours had already cut the lines and set sail.

That was the last time we ever worked in a subcontractor capacity for anyone. I determined right then that our future would not be built upon the foundation of some major contractor or maintenance company. I've told many companies since then that we'll do 1:1 business with them, but not as an "agent". We don't need that level of aggravation or risk. We DO need a level of trust and dependability with our customers. Our prompt-payment, long term customers absolutely get priority service from us...as they should. Why would I give that to an entity which wants 1) the lowest price, 2) yearly bidding, 3) fast, priority response, 4) excessive documentation, and 5) slow payment terms? Game-players, strategists and deadbeats get eliminated quickly around here.

I learned a long time ago that cancer is a spreading disease, and I'll not invite it inside my company.
Well said!!:salute:
 
#90 ·
There is a deliberate and very well thought-out reason why big companies use these practices. We know it as "holding on to money", but it goes way beyond that. An essential fact for most payors (companies spending money) is that the longer you hold an invoice, the more you save. Your vendors lose track of invoices and accounts receivable. Some of them assume you're paying when you're not. Disputing an invoice will often result in money saved. Money retained...even short term...is drawing interest of thousands per day or week. Small vendors get into trouble and close their doors...the bill never gets paid. The Big Picture is that being a big, slow-to-pay customer is a way to add to your bottom line. It's done routinely and strategically.

We always determine a customer's payment practices before contracting with them. They understand up front that taking longer to pay will simply result in a higher base price. Who has time to fart with surcharges, interest, account maintenance and the like? We don't. If you pay slow, you pay more from the outset. That's it.
 
#91 ·
payment on time

Well, if anybody cares, I have all the $$ owed to me by Brickman on time so far. At this point, I only have 2 saltings in this. Only the good Lord knows what lies ahead though? This is my first year dealing with them, so I may change my opinion quickly, LOl It is a seasonal contract, so I only have to call in and report and I don't have a crazy paper trail to deal with. I am just keeping my fingers crossed!:eek:
 
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