Anyone else on here plow for as a sub for Brickman at a Target store? I'm a small operation and one of their reps just contacted me with a rush request to bid on a local Target at a seasonal rate. He tells me to use NOAA 30 year average to calculate my costs. I told him forget that, it has snowed more frequently the last 5 years probably due to global warming so that 30 year average is skewed.
Does anyone who does commercial work in Chicago area know how many times they went out last season? It seemed like February we were out every day with nuisance snows salting. These guys want us little guys to take a huge risk and offer a low flat rate for the season. How do you guys even begin to calculate the costs with so many variables?
I'd love to get into larger commercial work but it could put me out of business in a hurry if it snows more than what you calculate and they are slow or no-payers. How good is Brickman about paying?
No, I wish I was B.S. ing, then I could find some humor in it, but needless to say, I didn't think it was to funny either. They wanted me to call with my lowest possible price. I did, about two weeks ago, and haven't heard a word from them since. Seems the only difference between them and USM, is the name.
Northern your in MN correct ? Don't you guys get a decent amount of snow ? I don't think that price would cover salt, fuel & operators here, let alone any actual equipment or overhead costs. The worst part of the whole deal is that everyone (Target, Brickman, etc) that it can't be done for those prices. Yet they still try. That's my biggest complaint about this industy (it's probably like this in every business), there are so many scam artists.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. So you based your seasonal on 20 pushes and plowed 22 times...good estimating for an above average winter last year.
How many salts did you count into your seasonal bid price then?
Not a problem. I estimated 30 salt visits. As for going over, it was set at a capped rate, but I failed to insert a blizzard clause since they required me to sign their contract after all was said and done. Fortunately the blizzard set us just over the cap and we agreed to an additional dollar amount that was negotiated to be fair to everyone. Initially it was like pulling teeth, but it was infact the terms of THEIR contract at that point
I was recently offered two local Target stores in my area. The initial offer from the GC was roughly half of what I was paid last year for the same property. I responded with the minimum that I would service the store for and am waiting for the response so we will see. Last winter we had 15 full pushes with salt and an additional 6 times of just salting.
Not a problem. I estimated 30 salt visits. As for going over, it was set at a capped rate, but I failed to insert a blizzard clause since they required me to sign their contract after all was said and done. Fortunately the blizzard set us just over the cap and we agreed to an additional dollar amount that was negotiated to be fair to everyone. Initially it was like pulling teeth, but it was infact the terms of THEIR contract at that point
Initially they were 30 days past due by the time they set me up in accts payable through coorporate, buy then they were on board. It sucked being 60 days out starting a large account early in the season, but that's part of the game sometimes I guess. It took about another 30 days extra to collect the additional, but the excuse was they thought it was a duplicate invoice. I have a feeling it was still being debated on the inside. The one G.M. had a real problem with it and was trying hard for a feather in his hat. He accidentally included an email conversation in a FWD to me one time. I got the best of him though. :salute:
Initially they were 30 days past due by the time they set me up in accts payable through coorporate, buy then they were on board. It sucked being 60 days out starting a large account early in the season, but that's part of the game sometimes I guess. It took about another 30 days extra to collect the additional, but the excuse was they thought it was a duplicate invoice. I have a feeling it was still being debated on the inside. The one G.M. had a real problem with it and was trying hard for a feather in his hat. He accidentally included an email conversation in a FWD to me one time. I got the best of him though. :salute:
Im going to stand up for BFS. We're not working for the local brickman landscape branch but rather the paper pushing people in Marion Ohio. The last 2 years we did a big box store for them and likewise, this week they offered me a Target too. They are great to work for, were reasonable when we exceeded our cap, and pay promptly. We are still hashing out numbers for Target but Im confident we will find a number good for both of us.
Im going to stand up for BFS. We're not working for the local brickman landscape branch but rather the paper pushing people in Marion Ohio. The last 2 years we did a big box store for them and likewise, this week they offered me a Target too. They are great to work for, were reasonable when we exceeded our cap, and pay promptly. We are still hashing out numbers for Target but Im confident we will find a number good for both of us.
paid great. I wasnt too happy when we went over our cap on *store 1* but we made bank before hitting it. Payments were, for the most part, on time, very routine. No paperwork garbage each storm. Just call their phone number and tell the computer what was done. As long as there was weather data to support your work called in, they approved the work and send a check about 30 days later.
We managed to work a deal for the Target I wanted today. I knew my numbers and stood firm. Got my price, am happy.
One theory you can use for bidding seasonals has always been using historical data but basing your bid on the worst or close to worst historical snow season so no matter what you can CYA.
Ive seen paperwork from companies saying bids for seasonal in NJ areas should be between 14 -23inches... we've gotten 74 inches and 42 inches... we you'd be an idiot to bid "30 year averages", but thats what they want because they know it will heavily skew the bid too low and jam you up. I've seen more of it this year than in the last 5 years total. Its difficult for the larger management firms to take seasonal bids now so they're working to get prices back down.
took the words right out of my mouth... i kept looking to find out if he was joking about it!
Ive seen lots of established companies loose their a$$ over a seasonal contract they bid "correctly" for the market and yet in the last two years, NJ has had some monster snow storms and accumulations 2-3x our normal of a "good year".
We bid seasonals higher anticipating more snow say for $20,000... honestly thats assuming 30" ~ for the year. When we got 74", i would have lost a lot too, best part is, the winning bid was $13,900 something, and they were trying to get us to come down because they never heard of the company that bid low... sorry not my problem. This year they came to us again, we bid $24,500.... manager called me, why is it higher? We could pay you closer to 20k this year! Sorry bud, 20k was my lowest offer last year, this year its more. No word yet... hah.
Seasonal pricing always opens the door for what services should REALLY be rendered for your "set price". We all know, we put down salt when its needed, if thats 25x a season, we bill for 25 times. Seasonals will expect it more often. Same with snow, they assume because they have a set price that you must meet every demand them have and request because "they've paid for it already". Per push or event pricing, they'll not bother you about every nickel and dime because they know they'll be charged somewhere for it.
BFS called my cell the other morning around 7am. I had just crawled into bed, so I didn't answer it. They didn't leave a message, but their number was there. My wife told me I should call them back. I laughed, no I don't think so. Its all part of their business plan I told her. They need you to want them, more than they want you. The more you want it, the cheaper you will do it. No thanks...Been there, done that. Better to find something else to do, than work at losing money.
The problem is they will find someone!! If everyone just said no to national management companies we would all be better off. Take charge and just say no! this is like a drug campain and the drug is money with a catch. Snow does not work National just ask Wal-Mart
took the words right out of my mouth... i kept looking to find out if he was joking about it!
Ive seen lots of established companies loose their a$$ over a seasonal contract they bid "correctly" for the market and yet in the last two years, NJ has had some monster snow storms and accumulations 2-3x our normal of a "good year".
We bid seasonals higher anticipating more snow say for $20,000... honestly thats assuming 30" ~ for the year. When we got 74", i would have lost a lot too, best part is, the winning bid was $13,900 something, and they were trying to get us to come down because they never heard of the company that bid low... sorry not my problem. This year they came to us again, we bid $24,500.... manager called me, why is it higher? We could pay you closer to 20k this year! Sorry bud, 20k was my lowest offer last year, this year its more. No word yet... hah.
Seasonal pricing always opens the door for what services should REALLY be rendered for your "set price". We all know, we put down salt when its needed, if thats 25x a season, we bill for 25 times. Seasonals will expect it more often. Same with snow, they assume because they have a set price that you must meet every demand them have and request because "they've paid for it already". Per push or event pricing, they'll not bother you about every nickel and dime because they know they'll be charged somewhere for it.
After last year I will never take another seasonal contract from a national company
unless it is at least avg x 1.5 with 30% due by Dec 1st. and a Blizzard Clause.
I have been doing this for 20 years and this has to come to an end soon.
They have to be running out of contractors to screw.....right?
And from what I here from my insurance agent, many contractors are being dropped,
some with no way to get coverage unless they pay 3 or 4 times the previous rate.
Every National has called me already and They don't sound happy. They don't seem to like my terms.
Oh and to add a comment for some...30-60 days late means you are getting screwed,
wake up. This is the digital age. They can pay you on time.
I'm having a good winter also working for Brick-man.
Flame me all you want, but I'm still bringing in income if it doesn't snow. I've almost got all my accounts set up where volume wise I'll be 50/50 to the seasonal to the per-push.
Even after last years record snow, I came out ahead on the Brickman account. Didn't lose my shirt like everyone said I would.
Their contracts have stipulations for the number of saltings and pushes during store hours to protect the subs from being at the beck and call of the store managers.
.....
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