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Blizzard 8611 converted to Loader - Issues!!

Discussion in 'Blizzard Plows Discussion' started by gillilandscape, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. gillilandscape

    gillilandscape Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    I have an 8611 that i purchased last year and used on an Int. 4900 dump truck. Worked absolutely great and i decided to purchase a 2nd one this season for a backup. My original plan was to weld a skid steer plate to a push beam and run it off the loaders electric so i could still use it on the int. 4900 if the other plow went down. I talked with Jerre on several occasions and decided to basically convert it to run off the loader aux. hydraulics.

    I wanted to be able to lock the aux. hydro on so i would have constant flow to the plow. I did so with a switch inside the cab. I had (1) line on the supply side running to the lower port on the manifold (i bought the steel block off jerre to hook to the manifold) I then had the return line running from the manifold back to the loader return line.

    When hooked up like this, all the plow functions worked when the aux hydros were locked on but i could not lift the loader arms. I disabled and deleted the lift cyl. so if i cant lift the loader arms im screwed. I did figure out that if i hold the angle or either wing button i can then lift the loader arms?? It seems like the flow is dead-heading in the manifold and not flowing through (seems opposite of an open circuit where it can just recirculate back to the loader) except when im activating the solenoids on the plow and then it seems more like an open circuit With the flow from the loader, the plow is WAY to fast for employees!

    So, After another talk with Jerre and some experimenting, i decided i needed a flow restrictor or flow control. To try to address the dead-heading and the speed, i bought a flow control so i could dump most of the aux flow directly back into the return line before it hit the manifold. After hooking everything up, my left wing is running backwards (i believe it got screwed up with all the testing)

    The questions are,
    1. Has anyone else out there done this and should my setup work. Obviously the hoses need adjusted length wise as i added a check valve and it screwed up the length but i wanted to get it to work first.

    2. When i turn the hydros on the left wing sucks back in if it is out and i cant shoot it back out without reversing the aux flow. Does this mean the S9 or S10 is bent or screwed up. I took both out and looked them over, cleaned them, oiled, and reinstalled. It did seem to work correctly for a second and then started the same thing?

    Ive attached some pics of where im at currently. Can anyone help!

    IMG_9906.JPG

    IMG_9908.JPG

    IMG_9909.JPG

    IMG_9910.JPG
     
  2. ANA Proscapes

    ANA Proscapes Senior Member
    from NH
    Messages: 109

    Nice loader. I was thinking about doing the same thing for my bobcat 2410. It would have been a lot easier to just use a controller and wire it up to the plow like a truck. it seems like a big hassle to convert it to all hydro. You should have a hydro flow control on the back of the machine that controls the aux hydro and loader arms. It behind the cab under a orange cover above the counter wheight. Good luck with the project.
     
  3. ANA Proscapes

    ANA Proscapes Senior Member
    from NH
    Messages: 109

    Nice loader. I was thinking about doing the same thing for my bobcat 2410. It would have been a lot easier to just use a controller and wire it up to the plow like a truck. it seems like a big hassle to convert it to all hydro. You should have a hydro flow control on the back of the machine that controls the aux hydro and loader arms. It behind the cab under a orange cover above the counter wheight. Good luck with the project.
     
  4. beam

    beam Senior Member
    from pa
    Messages: 314

    what are the pressures at deadheading pump might of bent the valves or they are stuck
     
  5. maelawncare

    maelawncare Senior Member
    Messages: 871

    I was thinking along the same.

    Also make sure your hydro fluid is clean, anything in them will stick those. I had the same problem 2 years and wound up having to just replace the valve. Cleaning and reinstalling made them work but soon after they would stop.

    And that is some great fab work. It is coming along quite well. I asked Jerre about the same thing and I got totally lost once he started explaining it to me lol. Now I know what he was talking about.
     
  6. gillilandscape

    gillilandscape Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    I believe one of the valves may be stuck. I pulled the top left and right and flipped them. That made the opposite wing start acting up. I tried to clean it up and put everything back together and it started working properly.

    Note: At this point, i have removed the flow control and have a line from the supply to the lower port and a line direct from the upper port back to the return. Everything worked great (I'm just using the thumb switch on the joystick to activate the hydros, not locking them on like i would like to do. )

    SO, i put the flow control back on and hooked it up as seen in the pics. Obviously i know everything works because i just tried it. After reassembly i first tried without locking it on and it seemed ok (seemed slower which it should, but maybe a little choppy) and then i locked the flow on and it worked for about 5 seconds and then quit completely. So, here i sit again wondering if i bent something else or stuck another valve. I have the flow control set way down. I guess ill put it back to just the standard two lines and try it that way.

    What im thinking at this point is i may not be able to lock the hydros on. If that is the case, i simply need to figure out a way to signal the aux circuit when i push a button on the controller. The only issue i see is the thumb switch on the joystick is actually creating a ground. All the loader solenoids have power all the time, they are just seeking a ground. Im not sure how i could add a wire to the controller that would provide a ground to the aux hydro solenoid. I could then reduce my supply side hose diameter to control the speed (basically restrict the flow a bit)

    Anyone else have ideas?
     
  7. bliz&hinikerDLR

    bliz&hinikerDLR Senior Member
    Messages: 471

    If swapping the wing valves moved the problem from one side or another, then yes you have a valve problem. Examine the valve and test it with it out of the manifold to verify operation. Replace it if it doesn't shift.
    It is hard to tell from the picture. Do you have a solenoid valve on the block somewhere that diverts the flow from just a normal loop (ie supply to return) and directs it into the manifold? That is the way that a central hydraulic unit is usually set up. The valve would be powered by the red main power wire in the plow harness that usually goes to the motor.
    I'm not sure if the flow control valve is needed. I don't have enough experience to tell you, but I can say that we never have installed them when doing a skid steer power plow install. We just run a supply and return line to the Blizzard central hydraulic block mounted on the manifold.
    What are you using for a controller?
    On a side note: if you wanted this for a backup plow, why did you choose a central hydraulic conversion?
     
  8. beam

    beam Senior Member
    from pa
    Messages: 314

    i have a central hydraulic block available from blizzard but do they use a different manifold also????
     
  9. gillilandscape

    gillilandscape Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    @ bliz&hinikerDLR - There is not a block like you described. I was told the block that i got would work fine (basically it attaches the Lines to the Manifold. )

    Im using the Std. Blizzard controller with toggle switches. I was told if i installed the block you are describing with the activator wire that i would have to rewire my controller? At least i think that is what i understood. Is that the case (something about adding diodes?)

    Lastly, It was originally going to be a backup. When i was told not to try to keep the push beam because it wasn't designed to be used to stack snow (by lifting the entire plow up in the air sing the draw latch mech) i decided to simply convert it over.

    What is the cost of the central hydro block you describe and what all would i have to do to get it up and working? Thanks
     
  10. bliz&hinikerDLR

    bliz&hinikerDLR Senior Member
    Messages: 471

    Ok, I can understand why you might not want to use the pushbeam idea. For those who aren't as familiar with Blizzards ... the pushbeam is the forks on the truck. Blizzard plows rely on the lift cylinder closing a clamp *draw latch* that locks the plow onto the pushbeam and pushing the plow up into the air. Conversely, when lowering into the float position, the cylinder releases the pressure on the clamp allowing the plow to drop to the ground. I'm not sure exactly what would happen if the ground was not there (ie, loader arms raised up in the air). I would guess that the lift cylinder would bottom out and the hitch pins would be left holding the plow on. I am guessing that would be a lot of stress on the lift cylinder and hitch pins. So that would be why the pushbeam idea is not so great.
    As for the central hydraulic block, I would like to talk to the person at DD who sets the pricing on some of this stuff. They charge the same price for this simple block that they do for an entire power unit (read as motor, pump, main relief valve, and hydraulic tank assy). I seem to remember a list of around 750.
    To get it working you would need to bolt the central hydraulic block to your manifold where your lines are currently hooked up ... basically the CHB takes the place of your old electric power unit. Run a supply and return from the loader to the block (typically 1/2" 2-wire hose). Connect the solenoid valve on the CHB to the red power wire on the plow harness and the other wire to the ground on the manifold. The loader side I am not as familiar with using a truck harness. I believe you would wire the loader the same as a truck, minus the lighting harness. I would still use a motor solenoid in the loader even though you dont really need something that heavy duty. Using one will just eliminate the need for the solenoid activation wire to be run all the way down to the plow and is why the solenoid valve on the CHB is wired to the main power wire. I am not sure about using the old rocker controls for this type of install, but the current PH1 controls work just fine.
    This is a little out of my comfort zone so if someone knows differently please chime in.
     
  11. Jerre Heyer

    Jerre Heyer Senior Member
    Messages: 948

    After numerous failures with the Block from Blizzard one of our customers started using the block style seen in the picts with good success. The factory block includes a flow control as well as a trigger solenoid and a pressure relief valve.


    The pressure relief was very picky and the slightest contamination caused it to stick open and causing no operation.

    I suggested to Jim early on that he not run it with flow all the time and wire the skidder to trigger the flow only when a function was triggered. This requires some diodes or wiring the standard control box to trigger the skidder valve from the brown wire on the controler.

    With the plumbing and install it's also possible that the wing valve has gotten some contamination in it as well as the possibility of a seal failure causing contamination.

    J
     
  12. maelawncare

    maelawncare Senior Member
    Messages: 871

    Theres your answer.

    What if you added a oil filter on the plow? It would clean the contamination and provide some restriction to slow down the hydros.
     
  13. gillilandscape

    gillilandscape Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    At this point im probably looking at trying to activate the hydro solenoid (on the loader) from the controller although im not sure exactly how im going to do that yet.

    Im not sure about a hydro filter on a pressure line. I believe most times they are on the suction (return) side of things.

    We got some snow today so i never got a chance to look at it any more today.
     
  14. Jerre Heyer

    Jerre Heyer Senior Member
    Messages: 948

    If you are using the stock controller use the brown wire to trigger the flow on the skidder. From the conversation we had you were using the skidder controls. IF you're using the skidder controls you will need to make a run to Radio Shack or similar for some diodes and when you get them call me with a note pad for wiring instructions. J
     
  15. gillilandscape

    gillilandscape Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    I'm using the stock controller. I'm assuming this is the same trigger wire for the relay.

    I certainly appreciate everyone taking there time to help out. Im headed to to plow for a bit and hopefully i can get this thing wired up today. Ill let you know what i find out. Thanks again.
     
  16. gillilandscape

    gillilandscape Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    Well the issue is pretty much fixed thanks to everyone's input. I wired in a simple relay. The relay is activate by the brown wire in the plow harness. Instead on sending power, it simply closes the relay circuit (which is a ground in my case) so that the hydro solenoid on the loader turns on. Works like a charm.

    I'm going to get a smaller hose as the speed is still a little quick for employees. I will likely order an extra valve to be on the safe side and have a spare for the one that was sticking. Thanks again for all the help and i will try to get some action shots once we get more snow. I will also grab some pics of the wiring for anyone in the future.
     
  17. ANA Proscapes

    ANA Proscapes Senior Member
    from NH
    Messages: 109

    You should be able to show the hydro flow down with the valve on the back of the machine.
     
  18. gillilandscape

    gillilandscape Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    Im not plumbed to the valve in the back. I believe that is a separate valve for the optional backhoe attachment. I'm plumbed to the circuit for the aux hydraulics which has a value up front with the other loader valve bodies.
     
  19. ANA Proscapes

    ANA Proscapes Senior Member
    from NH
    Messages: 109

    How's the Plow working? Did you get the bugs worked out?