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Blacktop 101, damage repair.

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by Got Grass?, Jan 10, 2002.

  1. Got Grass?

    Got Grass? Senior Member
    Messages: 641

    Just thinking about the storm/plow damage I've caused.
    Most of it can be fixed with some soil and seed.

    But what about when you rip up a 2 by 2 ft area of the drive?
    It wasnt really my fault but the customer pays quite well and will lead to a couple year round dentists offices come spring if I treat her well, so I may end up reparing it depending on if it comes up in conversation.

    What happend is the drive is almost level with the road and I think the town plow changed that a bit causing me to break away about 2 x 2 ft 2in deep, of the drive. It was paved over concrete (entrance to sidewalk) thats still there.

    I know very little about drives except for re-coating them and patching small cracks.
    What goes into something like this and how would one go about reparing it?

    Figured I'd ask ya guys becasue I'm sure a lot of you guys have had to repair something like this or at least thoes damn potholes and yer not gunna just say hire a blacktop guy for something as small as this when the rest of drive is in good shape.
    Thanks in advance!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2002
  2. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    First and formost, a snowplow will not damage blacktop in good condition. When paving over concrete, the concrete must be in excellent condition and then a petroleum based adhesive must be used to adhere the asphalt to the concrete.

    As far as the repair is concerned, you'll have to wait until Spring when the asphalt plants reopen to get hot mix. Most plants won't sell you any less than a 1 ton drop(about $40), some are even more, so you'll have much more than you need. A 1 ton dump is a must, don't try to load a pickup. If you can purchase some hot asphalt in a metal can from the plant, you'll have a better chance of the repair sticking. First clean the concrete as well as you can, a blower will help, then smear the asphalt on the concrete with a trowel in a very thin coat, then lay in the blacktop. You'll need to rent a plate tamper for compaction, make sure it has a water feature or the blacktop will stick to the plate. After it's been compacted, seal the repair edges with more of the hot ashalt.

    You'll probably have about $100 in to it by the time your done and about 1/2 day by the time you get and return the tamper. DO NOT attempt to use bagged blacktop, you're only kidding yourself. That stuff will either crumble with traffic or get scraped out the next time you're there.
     
  3. digger242j

    digger242j Senior Member
    Messages: 672

    My blacktop 101 term paper...

    Yeah, what Pelican said...

    I'd add these clarifications to his post though...

    >>When paving over concrete, the concrete must be in excellent condition...

    But most of the time it's been paved over to make up for the fact that it's not in excellent condition.

    >>Most plants won't sell you any less than a 1 ton drop(about $40), some are even more, so you'll have much more than you need.

    Find somplace else that needs patched too, either there or down the street, and get paid for it...

    >>If you can purchase some hot asphalt in a metal can from the plant,

    Asphalt in this case meaning the hot tar that sticks the aggregate together, not the hot mix itself. It's often called "tack", at least around here. Maybe because it's tacky? If they don't sell it hot, you might be able to get an asphalt/water emulsion, which pours at room temperature. Not as good as the hot stuff, but far better than nothing.

    >>then smear the asphalt on the concrete with a trowel in a very thin coat...

    Yuck. I've never gotten that fussy about it. I just kinda dribble it around like the icing on a Danish. A coffee can kinked on one side so it makes like a spout will dribble it nicely. It helps to do the edges of the existing blacktop too. Also, the less ragged the edges are, the better.

    >>make sure it has a water feature or the blacktop will stick to the plate.

    Yeah. What Pelican said...

    >>After it's been compacted,

    Well, don't forget to rake it nice and smooth first, and leave it a little higher than the surrounding area--it'll go down when you compact it. Also, run the compactor half on the existing blacktop for your first pass. That'll help keep the edge of the patch uniform with the edge of the existing pavement.

    Another thing you need to do is to brush some diesel fuel on your shovel and rake before you start to handle the material. If you don't, it'll stick to the metal, same as it will to the bottom of the plate compactor....
     
  4. steveair

    steveair Senior Member
    Messages: 176

    hello,

    everyone is right with saying that hot is better than cold patch, But..............for a job like this, try the cold.

    The techniques are all right, but from a money standpoint, you'll spend a lot of it trying to get hot patch, get a plate compactor, etc.

    Just get a bag of cold patch (around $4) and buy a hand tamper while your at the home disappointment. The $20 investment in a tamper will definetly pay off in the future if you continue to plow and run into situations like this.

    In all liklihood, hot or cold, the patch is going to fail in a short time, most likley getting ripped up next season no matter what you do.

    If you honestly are convinced you have to use hot patch, then go ahead. But, just a short story, we use to use cold patch in the middle of a runway where 55 million dollar planes would land every hour......if it held up there, then a driveway should be fine.

    Just wait til spring, when all the plowing is down and tell the people not to drive directly over it for a few days if possible.

    steve
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2002
  5. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    The point of my first line was to show that GotGrass was probably not responsible for the damage as he initially stated. If the concrete is deteriorated there is no way that blacktop will stick to it for any length of time, adhesive or not, especially where there is a grade change.

    In NYC and on some bridge decks they put down a finished concrete base, then tack coat and finally blacktop. The concrete is fresh and solid so the blacktop has something to bond to.

    If you put your hot asphalt(tar) down too thick, the patch will tend to slide rather than adhere. Ideally the asphalt should be thinned and sprayed in but on this job it's too small to bother with.
     
  6. HandyHaver

    HandyHaver Senior Member
    Messages: 279

    I would check with one of your local paving companys.(the guys on the truck) See if they could run by with some left over material & tamp it for you. May still cost you $100.00, but will save you a half a days labor.

    Mark
     
  7. BRL

    BRL PlowSite.com - Veteran
    Messages: 1,277

    I've repaired a few driveways where I built walls or walks next to them. I went to Home Cheapo and bought the bags of black top (is this Cold Patch?), poured some gas on it & fired it up to make it Hot Mix, and then plate tamped it in. Both places I did this at came out OK and have held up well (one for 2 years & the other for 1 year+), however neither of those drives is experiencing snow plows & other abusive situations. Another one I did required a couple of tons. So I took my pick up to an asphalt plant with a piece of ply wood in the bed and bought the hot mix and hand shoveled it & tamped it. In retrospect, I would have like to have put some Tack to get a better adhesion to the existing asphalt. That one I need to touch up (at my parents house, and they are planning on sealing the drive so I suggested they get that contractor to see if they can make it better where the new meets the old). So this brings me to my question that I've wanted to ask someone who may know, Does Home Cheapo also sell some kind of "Tack" to use, or can it only be gotten from the asphalt plants?

    While I can agree with Steve's statements about the costs of doing this small repair, IMO its better to do the asphalt correctly the first time instead of coming back every couple of months when it crumbles etc. The plate tamper is a must. I think digger242 brought up a great idea to find other problems in the area & make a day out of it & make a nice profit fixing other non customer's damaged spots.
     
  8. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    You could use an asphalt based roofing cement or foundation sealer, not optimum but better than nothing. There are also asphalt based sealers in caulking tubes for smaller amounts.
     
  9. OBRYANMAINT

    OBRYANMAINT PlowSite.com Veteran
    from ohio
    Messages: 534

    to my knowledge the home depot type store will not have tack, they may have something similar but its not the same, The tack when hot has a chemical reaction to the asphalt and will make a better bond.

    most asphalt plants will sell you tack very cheaply. It may be a hassle to them but, most will sell it for a buck or two a gallon
     
  10. Yardworks

    Yardworks Senior Member
    Messages: 143

    I've done my share of patching in the past (used to be a supervisor of an asphalt maint. company) The advice so far has been very good coming from a bunch of snowplowers. The only extra advice I could think of is: 1-when they say leave it high because of compaction, I would leave it about 1/2 inch higher then the existing asphalt if it is 2 inches deep. 2-If using a vibra plate spray the patch with a little diesel fuel and the bottom of the vibra plate. It will help with the finish of the blacktop. Using just water doesn't always give you a good finish. 3- you will probably need a hand tamper even if you use a vibra plate, if you want it to look perfect. Use a can of WD-40 to spray the bottom of the tamper and tools.(alittle more convienent then diesel fuel.) Good luck.
     
  11. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    Whaddya mean by dat?????!!!!
     
  12. digger242j

    digger242j Senior Member
    Messages: 672

    He's probably just overlooking the fact that this "bunch of snowplowers" represents the best and brightest the industry has to offer...

    (A frightening thought in and of itself...) ;)
     
  13. OBRYANMAINT

    OBRYANMAINT PlowSite.com Veteran
    from ohio
    Messages: 534

    he means versus the advice from some asphalt laborers.....i took his comment as a compliment
     
  14. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    Personally,I wouldnt fix it,I guess i cold,but if it broke up,it wasnt done properly,and why bother fixing it,to keep the account,your going to have to do the same thing every year,since the job wasnt done right the first time.If they fix it right,great,otherwise,let them get it fixed properly by a blacktop company.I now use U edges,and if it tears up with a U edge,then it it really wasnt going to last anyway.I do repair my damage,I have replaced a few concrete parking stops,even though my contract says Im not responsible,If its my fault,I fix it,this is not your fault,if you want ot fix it to keep it,jsut plan on doing it every year,and each year the patch will be bigger.
     
  15. Got Grass?

    Got Grass? Senior Member
    Messages: 641

    Great info. The concrete is in great shape. I think what happened is when the town put in the curbs, and installed the walks thay installed the concrete from the road up to the walk. Then the homeowner had the drive re-paved and paved over that for some reason.
    Depending on cost -vs- extra cash I may have my old gravel drive properly graded and paved sometime in the next year or so.

    So how's this sound? Becasue it wasnt my fault to begin with. I think I'll use the cheep cold patch stuff.
    I normally wouldnt fix something like this even for more contracts. But she's older and kinda friends w/ my mom and has good contections. so, well... ya know how that goes. If It's cheep I'll do it.
    Then when I get my drive done, I'll ask the guys to swing over there and repair it properly. Could possibly convince the customer to have her drive resealed so it would work out good for both. Give them another job and get her drive "properly" fixed.

    Just out of curiosity what would need to be done for a base when paving my drive becides regrading it. 50yr old crushed stone odviously compacted and more has been added over the years?

    Thanks again.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2002
  16. sonjaab

    sonjaab PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,425

    GG Mike,
    Are you plowing with your plow shoes on ?
    As u know I use mine all the time and have been
    lucky NOT to tear up any blacktop (knock on wood)
    Wait untill spring and get ya some hot patch and
    load it on your trailer to fix any plow damage !

    Pray for MORE snow.....................Geo
     
  17. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    Your base requirement would depend on soil condition and your traffic load. If your existing gravel drive is in good shape with no ruts or potholes, and the soil drains well, then you probably only need to top dress it with a couple inches of item 4 compacted. If there are problems with the existing driveway then you'll need more work, which is tough to predict sight unseen.

    General rule: the heavier your traffic load, the heavier your base should be. As with most other jobs, your base is the most important aspect.
     
  18. Yardworks

    Yardworks Senior Member
    Messages: 143

    My "for a bunch of snowplowers" comment was suppose to be a compliment. I was just suprised that you guess had so much knowledge of the asphalt business. I guess I shouldn't have been. Snowplowers do know pretty much everything. Pelican you must have been in the asphalt business or still are. It makes sense that asphalt/asphalt maintanence companies would be in the snow removal business. Having the equipment and being seasonal. I just overlooked it because not one asphalt comp. in my area does it.
     
  19. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    I had one of my posts torn apart here too because it was misunderstood. The trouble with these forums is you can't hear tone of voice or see facial expressions. Sometimes we get a little too defensive.