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Black oil again,... and a dead plow,... again !!

Discussion in 'Boss Plows Discussion' started by Alaska Boss, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    Well, it appears that I've been snake-bit twice. A couple days ago,... as I was plowing out a customers yard,... my new 8.2 V-blade died, (fried hydraulic pump),... just like my 9.2 did the first year I bought it. (My 9.2 fried 3 pumps in the first 3 years) At least this time I knew what had happened,.. altho I still do not know WHY this is happening. And with all the other Boss owners on this site,... I've been waiting & looking to see if anyone else has ever had this happen to them, what is happening to me,... and I haven't seen one other person who has. My plow would barely lift itself when I realized what had happened again,... and as soon as I got home,... I dropped the plow off in my shop,... drained the oil,... and this is what it looked like,... compared to clean new hydraulic fluid,... I had just checked it right after the first of the year to see if it was turning color,... and at that time it still looked like new,.... :realmad:

    Boss 15 (Small).JPG
     
  2. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    To make a long story short,.... the issue I had with my 9.2 V-blade,... and why I as burning up the hydro pumps,... is because the packing material in the Smartlocks was disintegrating,... and all these millions of microscopic particles of packing material were floating around in my fluid,... which plugged up the screens in the reservoir,.. and fried the pump. These are a couple reprints of the packings inside the Smartlocks of my 9.2 that I posted a couple yeas ago when all this happened,... showing how they came apart,...

    Smartlock apart (Custom).JPG

    Left-side & right-side comparison (Custom).JPG

    Close-up of the V-packing (Custom).JPG
     
  3. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    Are you using genuine Boss fluid? Although some other branded fluids will meet specs not all are directly compatible with the seals used in the cylinders and will cause them to breakdown and contaminate the system. Both synthetic and non synthetic ATF is what I've found to be the worse offenders. Seems their detergents attack the seals thus breaking them down to mush and of course contaminating the system in the process.

    However if you are using Boss fluid then I'd say you're a victim of a defective cylinder seal in one of the cylinders. I haven't seen it very often when the correct fluid is used but I can't say I've never seen it either. And it's been more on this seasons plows than ever before. :cool:
     
  4. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    I had to fight with the Boss dealer in Anchorage at the time to get this covered under warranty,... they kept telling me that it was my fault because I wasn't changing my oil enough,... well.. I knew that was just baloney,... so after the 2nd pump failed,... replacing pumps was not fixing this,... I could buy new pumps til the cows came home,.. and it would never end,... so I was able to contact a Boss rep in Michigan directly,.. and he went above and beyond the call of duty to try and figure out why this was happening,... and he sent me another complete power unit & new Smartlocks well after the warranty period was over,... because he agreed with me that the dealer did not address the real issue that caused this in the first place. No one had heard of this happening before,... so I just chalked it up to my typical luck of getting a set of bad Smartlocks,... since the new units in my 9.2 had worked & worked hard for 3 years after that (my plowing seasons run at least 7 months) with no issues at all,... nice clean oil, etc. But now,... it has happened again. I have no choice except to cannibalize my 9.2 (which is very very wore out) and replace the power unit & the Smartlocks into the 8.2,... because I still have a lot of plowing left to do this winter yet. So, that's what I did,... and snapped a couple photos of it,.. including what the packings inside these Smartlocks look like as well....

    Boss 11 (Small).JPG
     
  5. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    That was one of the first things I wondered as well... but both of my Boss V-blades have failed now before completing their first seasons with Boss fluid in them. The Boss rep in Micigan said that fluid incompatability was clearly NOT the issue here,.. I don't think so either,... if it was,.. then everyone would have this issue,... not just me. I have never used any ATF in any plow I've ever owned,... and all 4 Smartlocks in both plows had disintegrated packings,... so that would lead me to believe that the packings themselves are bad,... but then why isn't everyone having this trouble??
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2010
  6. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    In any case,... at least working on these plows is nice,... just unhook the angle and lift rams,.. lay the light rack backwards and everything is nicely exposed,.... :mechanic: :nod:

    Boss 4 (Small).JPG
     
  7. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    Both of my Boss plows are 2003 models,... my friend that I bought this plow from bought it brand new like 2 months after I bought my 9.2,.. but he never used it,... he just stored it this whole time,.. he never even registered it,... not a scratch on it,... so when I took the power unit out,... I could see that the motors are different (comparing the new unit that Boss sent me for the 9.2). The newer unit (foreground) has an isolated ground terminal that the ground cable bolts to,... whereas the older/original unit had the ground cable bolted to the back side of the pump housing on the outside,... I think the new system would be better,... pumps & tanks look the same,... and the newer motor is a little shorter as well...

    Boss 2 (Small).JPG

    Boss 3 (Small).JPG
     
  8. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    When I took the tank off,... I noticed right away that the screen on the pickup tube wasn't put on straight,... and was deformed to the contour of the tank,... (1st 2 pics) maybe not a big deal,... but it was clearly plugged off,.. the only reason the bottom of the screen wasn't plugged, is because it was tight against the side of he tank,... but the pump was clearly starving for fluid,.. and pumping all those tiny particles as well. I took the tank off the new unit from the 9.2,... and after 3 long hard years of use,.. it looked almost perfect,... just a tiny bit of black sludge along the bottom edge of he screen,... (last 2 pics), but clearly,... the packings in those Smartlocks have not disintegrated after 3 full years,... but the ones in this 8.2 didn't make it thru one year,... just like the original ones in the 9.2 didn't either....

    Boss 5 (Small).JPG

    Boss 6 (Small).JPG

    Boss 7 (Small).JPG

    Boss 8 (Small).JPG
     
  9. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    So, in conclusion,.... the Smartlocks are clearly the culprit here,... but why is this happening?? And why only to me?? Was there some defect in the materials of the packings in the 2003 models that has been improved in the later ones?? I know of a number of other Boss V-blades in my area,.. and no one else has had this happen,... but to be sure,... no one else comes close to plowing as much as I do. But the newer Smartlocks from Boss have held up just fine for the last 3 years in my 9.2,... so it can't be my style/hours/temps etc. I have written to Boss again,.. and hope to have some more educated insight as to why I have killed 2 new plows because of contaminated fluid due to Smartlock packing disintegration. At this point,... if I were to get another Boss around a 2003 model,... I would replace the Smartlocks before I would hook up the plow to my truck,... it's going to do nasty things to $1000 bill to fix this if I use local parts,... so,.. even tho I'm apparently the only one who has this happening,... if you have a V-blade from around a 2003 model,... at least keep a close eye on your fluid color,... and even tho it takes a few minutes longer,... pull your tank off once in awhile & see if anything is happening in there... hope that helps,... :waving::waving:

    Boss 10 (Small).JPG

    Boss 12 (Small).JPG

    Boss 14 (Small).JPG
     
  10. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    The flattened/contoured pickup screen is normal and is no reason for concern, virtually all the Haldex built pumps are like that and it causes no issue.


    So both your plows happen to be '03 model years? Not to throw a monkey in the works but are you 100% positive on the "new" one that the motor is original to it? Because the double stud motors weren't released until the '06 model year. However there was a batch of bad Smart Locks from Boss' cylinder manufacture during '03 as I recall. But it's the double stud motor that throws me off as to the '03 model year. It shouldn't have one.
     
  11. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951


    I guess how I wrote that was a little confusing,... the double stud motor was the "newer" unit that Boss sent to me right from the factory, in late 2006, or early 2007, I believe. That was after I had burned up the 3rd pump in the 3rd year of owning the 9.2,.. I wasn't going to just keep on buying new pumps,... the pumps weren't at fault here,... so, yes, the double studded motor is at least a 2006 motor,.. but both plows are 2003 models,... sorry about that,... :waving:
     
  12. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    That clears it up and makes perfect sense then, and it's nothing you're doing wrong. You simply ended up with two plows that both have cylinders from the same defective batch from back in '03. Clean the system thoroughly and get some fresh cylinders on there you should be all good. wesport

    Note: Be sure you get parts for a pre-'06 model year as the cylinders were changed in '06 and the newer ones won't fit your '03 plow.
     
  13. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    Thanks Mike,... I sure never heard anything about a defective batch of Smartlocks back in '03 when I first bought my 9.2,... all the headaches I went thu with the dealer up here at that time, etc. I'm wondering if maybe they didn't know about it either,... because the only comment I heard from one of the guys there, was that he thought my oil was burnt,.. and I was abusing my plow big-time,... I don't want ignorant people like that touching my stuff,... lol. It just seems like they should have had a whole bunch of those plows coming back with this same issue,... oh well... thanks again :waving:
     
  14. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    There was some talk of it back then (amongst dealers mostly) and although it was a somewhat isolated incident a few owners experienced it around here too back then so you're not alone.

    Perhaps the info was simply delayed on it's way north. Say seven full years. :D
     
  15. albhb3

    albhb3 PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,508

    ^ Heck I just heard there getting the first set of 8 tracks in @ try-n-save:laughing:
     
  16. elecblu

    elecblu Member
    Messages: 79

    I have (2) 8'2" v blades. I bought one in new in 2003, and the second used in 2005. neither has the smartlocks. is there any reason for me to be concerned. I must also thank both alaska boss and B&B for all the very useful info you guys give this sight. i have learned alot from reading your posts. THANKS AGAIN.
     
  17. B&B

    B&B PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 12,777

    If you've been servicing the fluid annually as you should and haven't found any indications of contamination (from deteriorating seals) by this point then there's nothing to be concerned with. :waving:
     
  18. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    Just an update on the early Smartlock situation,... I got a reply back from the Factory rep that I contacted a few years back when I was having this same trouble with my 9.2,... and here's what he said,...

    "We did have some issues on locking cylinders built in 2002. Where the piston screws on to the rod there was a slight radius or notch. When the cylinder rod was fully extended and actually pulled a little farther, that notch could catch on the V-packing. After enough cycles the V-packing would wear and get chewed up as shown in your pictures.

    We changed to a different seal design in the cylinders we sent to you for the first plow. The new seal design is shorter and won’t contact the notch between piston and rod. The new seal is not a direct replacement for the old v-packing so it’s not as easy as just replacing damaged seals with the new type. Part number on the cylinder with new seal design is HYD07130"




    So, if you don't have Smartlocks on your 2002/2003 plows,.. then this shouldn't be a factor for you. But if you do,... then this is something you should pay attention to. Maybe because I have 7+ months of mostly steady plowing each season, and that I am putting my plows thru far more "cycles" than the average person,... is the reason that I killed both of my V-blades in the first year of operation on them. :waving:
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2010
  19. Mopard

    Mopard Senior Member
    Messages: 290

    Hey Alaska Boss, so were the Smart Locks that failed recently the new type you were sent as a replacement or the other ones made in 2002?

    And you wouldn't per chance happen to have any pics of the lift cylinder tore apart like the smart locks above would you? Ever had any problems with a lift cylinder?
     
  20. Alaska Boss

    Alaska Boss PlowSite.com Addict
    from Alaska
    Messages: 1,951

    No,.. the ones that failed were the older/original ones that came on the 8.2, which is a 2003 model plow. So, I had to take the whole power unit & Smartlocks off my 9.2 to keep this new plow going, so I can finish up this winter. And, sorry, I have no pictures of the lift cylinder opened up like that,... I do know that they are not built like the Smartlocks w/v-packings, etc, since it is a 2-way ram. And I have never had any trouble at all with the lift cylinder, so have never had any reason to tear one apart. :waving: