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APPLICATION AMOUNTS FOR DEICERS

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by PINEISLAND1, Sep 9, 2000.

  1. PINEISLAND1

    PINEISLAND1 PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 664

    Can someone give me some ball park figures for straight salt and also for Magic for a typical application.

    The job is a private road, 3/10's of a mile. Just an average per app would help- I realize some days require more than others, but something to base a bid on would be heplful. I plan on bagged granular, either rock salt or magic.

    Thanks!
     
  2. John DiMartino

    John DiMartino PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 2,154

    what are you spreading it with?how wide is the road,I guessing its 1550ft aproxXwidth will give you sq ft.I pay about 45-65$ for a yard of straight salt,I doubt you could make any money using bagged material-its just to expensive.I spread mine thru my V-bax spreader.My guess is if its 20ft wide,you will need sbout 1/2 yard every time for a nice heavy application,that would be around 31000sg ft.I can get a yard to go around 40-8000 depending on conditions and lot shape
     
  3. Alan

    Alan PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,393

  4. Chuck Smith

    Chuck Smith 2000 Club Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 2,317

    Salt weight vs. volume

    Since we here at the forum use both bulk and bagged salt, I just wanted to point out a few facts.

    1 cubic yard of salt = 27 cubic feet of salt.
    1 cubic yard of salt weighs on avg. 1350 - 2000 pounds.

    Bagged salt commonly comes in 25 pound, and 80 pound bags.
    What you need to know, is how many cubic feet are in each bag. Then you could easily convert from yards to "bags".
    A good guess would be about 2 - 3 cubic feet in an 80 pound bag.

    Calcium Chloride comes in 80 and 100 pound bags. Again, you'd have to know how many cubic feet are in a bag, to convert from yards to "bags".


    So on that 1/2 mile road for instance, using the 2 and then 3 cubic feet per bag....

    If a bag holds 2 cubic feet, you' need 6 - 7 bags to salt it heavily, applying 13 cubic feet.

    If a bag holds 3 cubic feet, you'd need 4 - 5 bags to salt it heavily, again applying 13 cubic feet.


    ~Chuck
     
  5. Alan

    Alan PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,393

    According to the Salt Institute, (gotta assume they know what they are talking about) a cubic yard of "average" rock salt weighs 2160 lbs. A ton of salt occupies .85 cubic yards. This is taken from their numbers for calculating how big a building you need to store a given tonnage of salt. Up here we buy strictly by the ton, never had to deal with variations in yardage. I do know that salt with a lot of fines weighs more for a given volume than mostly coarse stuff does. Also, a lot of fines will increase your usage and decrease the ability of a given quantity to work as a DEicer, while increasing it's abiliy to work as an ANTI icer. That is from my observations anyhow. For what it's worth, pre-treatment with Magic seems to bind the fines into larger clumps which burn through pack much better than fines just dusted over the top.
     
  6. PINEISLAND1

    PINEISLAND1 PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 664

    "Ok what will give you is application per 1000 sq ft.
    We apply at the rate of 500# per 1000 sq ft in deicing situations, meaning
    after plowing. If we apply magic coated salt before snow, then we double the
    application rate."
    Dino

    -------------------------------------------------------

    Dino-

    Are these numbers you emailed me accurate?
     
  7. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    sorry I meant 500# per 10000 sq ft, or about 3000# per lane mile
    Lane mile = 5280x 12'or 63360 sq feet divide that by 10000 sq feet and you are at 6.33 x 500 lbs and you end up with
    3168 # per lane mile.
    Dino
     
  8. PINEISLAND1

    PINEISLAND1 PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 664

    Dino-

    Why is your magic application almost triple the amount that chuck says he would apply of rock salt? I cant imagine putting 1500 lbs on this 1500 ft. stretch, or twice that much before a snow. I couldnt get anyone to pay that much.
     
  9. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    I dont think that a ton per 60000 sq ft is to much for an application rate. But if would like, cut that by 1/2.
    Here is what I have to say about that, if I charge $150.00 tp salt a 60000 sq ft lot, and it will cost me $ 60.00 for the material to spread that lot, and to be sure that the lot is safe, then that is how I pursue that account. you asked me my rate of app,and I gave it to you.
    Please dont chastise me for the info.
    Dino
     
  10. PINEISLAND1

    PINEISLAND1 PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 664

    Dino-

    I am new to the deicing, and just trying to figure this out. You set yourself up as a salesman and rep for Magic, so please don't be surprised that I'm asking you these questions. Its nothing personal, I don't know you at all , and we live 800 miles apart. Im simply asking why if Magic is supposed to cut my salt usage almost in half, the application rate is quoted to me as more than double. Its a product question, not an Exterior Solutions operating procedures question.
     
  11. BRL

    BRL PlowSite.com - Veteran
    Messages: 1,277

    Dino, I don't think there was any chastising in his questions & comments. Just trying to get his facts together. Seems like you were jumping on him for nothing. Just my 2 cents. I'm sure Pine & all of us here appreciate your input greatly.
     
  12. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    Ok I went back and looked at last season usage on a 15000 sq ft lot.
    We used 15-50# bags for anti ice control, or 50# per 1000 sq ft, or 3000# per lane mile/60000 sq ft
    We used 10-50# bags per 15000sq ft for deicing, or 2000# per lane mile/60000 sq ft
    Now ground temps, humidity, air temps, and type of precip all affect application rates.
    I cannot speak for Chuck as to why his rates are what they are, I can only tell what mine are. I would rather use a little more and get results, then to use to little and be back for a second trip.
    There is no magic formula that gives you the exact answer.
    I see DOT trucks all the time, when trying to remove hard pack run straight salt at like 4 tons per line mile, yet they will give you an exact formula if asked, and I know they are full of crap.
    If you are getting freezing rain, that hopper door is going to be wide open, but if the sun is comming up, and you have a little glaze, you will trickle the material onto the lot.
    So in your case I assume that the road is about 20' wide, that gives you about 30000 sq ft. Now what you really want to know is how much money is this going to cost you to apply the material, so that way you can figure a profit. Application rates are secondary, and mean nothing if you dont get the results. So if you are deicing I would apply 1000# of magic coated salt, and if I were anti icing I would apply 1500# of magic salt. So that is 10 bags at
    $10.00 per bag, so your cost is $ 100.00 to salt that road, so salting should gross you 100% mark up, you charge
    $200.00 to salt that road.Now if you pre treat that road before hand and never have to plow, you charge for a salting of $200.00, and what ever you charge to plow that road. If you figure that at say the same $200.00 then you charge out a total of $400.00 for $150.00 worth of product and a hour of your time . Not to bad.
    In my case I purchase in bulk, and that same 1000# will cost 1/2 of what it will cost in bags, so my profit is even larger.
    My clients want black and wet, some markets expect less, so adjust accordingly.
    You asked ,and I answered.
    So if I can be of any further assistance, or if you still do not understand, feel free to contact me.
    Dino
     
  13. iowastorm

    iowastorm Senior Member
    Messages: 358

    Dino,

    I'm curious as to where you guys get your salt. Do you buy a bunch of pallets of bagged material or by the truck or train?? Here in Central Iowa, we can get it in 55lb bags at one place and 50lb bags at another; it's a tremendous pain to deal w/ all that bagged material.
     
  14. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    We buy from International Salt, out of New Haven CT.
    I could tell you what we pay for it per ton, but with the deal in the works that I am working on, I dont want to let to much info out. But we truck it up to our site, then spray the magic onto it.
    Now we spray at 8 gallons oer ton, and the bagged material is 4 gallons per ton, so the spryed bulk salt should have better melting capabilities then the bagged.
    We used bagged last year, we were just starting out with the magic, and wanted to try it, before outlaying alot of money into equipment.
    Dino
     
  15. PINEISLAND1

    PINEISLAND1 PlowSite.com Veteran
    Messages: 664

    All Right!

    Now that last post was exactly the kind of help and info I needed. I am trying to actively market this product here to a fairly large private road market that we have not targeted before, but hated to really screw up my bidding. That helps tremendously.

    The only other question that brings up is your bag figures. You said ten bags for a 1000 lb treatment- are there 100 lb bags available?

    Thanks again for all the help, I really do appreciate it!
     
  16. plowking35

    plowking35 2000 Club Member
    from SE CT
    Messages: 2,923

    Sorry another typo. Iwas figuring bags based on the original 15000sq ft that i started the post with. In your case it would be 20 bags.
    All this does is lead to the fact that with this much salt, bulk usage is what you really need.
    Buying 20 bags per application, may price you to high, but I dont know your market. If you buy in truck load quanity, you will save quite a bit, you may look at that option.

    Dino