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Another Salt on Concrete Q????????

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by Lawn Care Plus, Mar 9, 2007.

  1. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    Ok, here is another question for you all.

    Have you ever seen water softener salt, large grainular size literally cause 3-5" chunks of top layer to flake completely off of the concrete??

    If not what would cause such a thing. I have never seen this before in my life and the owner is claiming that I (the salt) am the cause?

    Tim
     
  2. REAPER

    REAPER 2000 Club Member
    from 60050
    Messages: 2,228

    I do not know anyone that uses that type of salt myself.

    That type of salt is compressed product. Sitting on the pavement dissolving I can see leaving a ring of about 6 inch in diameter per pellet.

    Is it all over the drive?
    Is there any residue left on the broken pieces?
    Is it all over the drive in spotted areas like salt would have been spread?
    How old is the concrete?

    That is a pretty harsh salt for concrete I suppose it could happen. Any of his neighbors have the same problem?
    Sometimes when the development is built they will do a bunch of drives on the same day when building the houses and if it is normal wear maybe a few of the houses around have the same thing. If not get ready for a claim for re-surfacing.
     
  3. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,887

    Crappy concrete. Water softener salt is the same salt as rock salt, just different size granules and maybe more dirt in the rock salt, other than that it's all NaCl.

    Not sure what compressed product means?? It comes out of the salt mine the same way, they don't turn it into brine and then turn it back into a solid and compress it.

    The salt 'caused' it because of freeze\thaw, but not because the salt actually harms concrete. They had crappy concrete installed, it'll be up to what your contract states as who pays for it.
     
  4. jbrow1

    jbrow1 Member
    Messages: 76

    How old is the concrete?
     
  5. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    I don't know how old the concrete is. there are spots where nothing happened and spots where it did. I also want to go back and see if there are spots where the concrete was cracking just under ice with no salt. This is the only site that this is happening on. I have 14 total sites that I service. You cannot even tell that anything was put down accept the drying marks.

    The thing is, Ice melt has salt in it also, so anything that would or could be put down would have done this.

    And, I don't think that one or two app's would do it alone. But I think it is definetely a bad concrete job. I am trying to get ahold of a concrete guy that I know and have him take a look at it.

    This guy is going to try to get me to pay to have this drive and walk redone, so I need all of the ammo I can get my hands on.

    Tim
     
  6. MrBigStuff

    MrBigStuff Senior Member
    from Boston
    Messages: 140

  7. brockh

    brockh Junior Member
    from PA
    Messages: 8

    FACT= water softener salt tablets WILL cause divits in concrete. It doesn't matter if the concrete is new, old, or in between its going to divit. The reason that the smaller grainular stuff doesn't mess up concrete is 1 the grain size itself is small so there is little to no divit left behind 2 it disolves quickly and salt dust is usually left behind. The large tablets don't disolve and disapate letting them settle directly on the concrete itself and salt is concrete's kryptonite. we had someone use the same stuff on fairly new concrete and it ruined what was a nice smooth concrete helipad
     
  8. REAPER

    REAPER 2000 Club Member
    from 60050
    Messages: 2,228

    I have watched a show on TLC about salt. Most salt for water conditioners is a compressed pellet.

    Maybe you buy some really cheap stuff for yours but from what I have understood about salt specifically for water conditioners is what I said.
     
  9. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,887

    Care to back this 'FACT' up with some research? Like I said, bulk rock salt is NaCl, water softener salt is NaCl. Salt does not physically attack\harm concrete. FACT. The freeze\thaw\refreeze cycle is what causes damage on either poor quality or newer concrete.
     
  10. 1sthippy

    1sthippy Member
    Messages: 85

    Samples

    LCP, Try and get a piece or two of the broken concrete. If this was from a bad batch and you have it tested, it might be your ace card to cover yourself. PM me if you would like more info. Hippy.
     
  11. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    I would think that if it is the freeze-thaw-refreeze cycle that causes issues, and it makes sense, ei tar roofs for the example=same thing, then ice melt would do the same thing and even worse, since they have the actual heat-up reaction element involved.

    Tim
     
  12. brockh

    brockh Junior Member
    from PA
    Messages: 8

    funny how it divits where the salt tablets STILL WERE....but i guess it could have been coincidence(right) its been prooven time and time again salt DOES affect concrete....consult a real concrete expert maybe he could set ya straight...ask him if he throws an excessive amount of salt on his sidewalks
     
  13. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    Divits is one thing, but scabbing of layers is quite another.

    I have seen a side walk with 30+ years of salt with "Divits" but never pealing of the top layer.

    Tim
     
  14. GTMS

    GTMS Senior Member
    Messages: 101

    First of all let me say that I am NOT trying to start anything. I think anyone who has been doing this long enough, knows better than to use salt on concrete, (Sorry Tim, not insulting you buddy) and all of us have seen the damage caused by salt popping the cream off the top of concrete down to the aggregate. There is no denying it. The application of salt on concrete will damage the concrete regardless of by what mechanism it achieves such damage. And the guy that wrote this article should be in politics. In one paragraph he states the above quote and in the next he says,
    "Concrete Spalling Comparison Study

    The National Research Council's Strategic Highway Research Program tested deicing salts to see how they would etch and destroy concrete. The tests were interesting. It appears that magnesium chloride did the least amount of damage. Calcium chloride caused 26 times more damage to the concrete than magnesium chloride. Regular rock salt, sodium chloride, caused an astonishing 63 times more damage. If the tests were accurate, it appears that it may be worth the extra money to purchase and use magnesium chloride.


    Tim, why don't you post a few pics of you problem for us to view.
    Jason
     
  15. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,887

    I have a salt storage bin made out of 'mafia' blocks. Salt has been stored against these blocks for over 8 years now. None are flaking, none are spalling, none are showing divits. Never has any freeze\thaw cycles either.

    Guess I don't know much. Been in the business for 20+ years, and we apply salt to concrete everytime it snows. Loading docks, pads poured in front of loading docks, heck we have a customer that has a couple acres of concrete for outside storage that we apply salt to everytime it snows. No damage, no spalling, no divits, no problems.

    If calcium is so harmful to concrete, why do they mix CaCl with concrete to help it cure in the winter?

    Properly prepared and cured concrete will not be damaged by salt. Fact. If you are having problems with this, either the concrete was crap and\or the installer didn't\doesn't know what he is doing.
     
  16. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    Ok, Here come a slew of photos that I have taken and resized.

    The square insets is an area that there was no salt, only ice and snow but the same effect as where there was salt.

    There is a shot of where I left salt after I swept the slab, and the salt is still there with no effect.

    There is are shots of sidewalks with salt and no effects except stains.

    Let me know what you all think.

    Thank you very much everyone.

    Photos of the problem first.

    Tim

    CementProb1.jpg

    CementProb2.jpg

    CementProb3.jpg

    CementProb4.jpg

    CementProb5.jpg
     
  17. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    More problem photos. The first photo here I adjusted as it was washed out. The color is not the color of the cement as seen by the human eye in the daylight.

    Tim

    CementProb6.jpg

    CementProb7.jpg

    CementProb8.jpg

    CementProb9.jpg

    CementProb10.jpg
     
  18. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    Here are more problem photos.

    Tim

    CementProb11.jpg

    CementProb12.jpg

    CementProb13.jpg
     
  19. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    Here are photos where the same thing is happening to the slab, but there was no salt in the area.

    One friend said that the salt would leech, but I am not sure if it does how far the effect would go. I think that the salt stains would indicate how far it would leech and have effect, but I could be wrong.

    Tim

    NoSaltVert1.jpg

    NoSaltVert2.jpg

    NoSaltVert3.jpg

    NoSaltVert4.jpg

    SidewalkSaltNoProb7.jpg
     
  20. Lawn Care Plus

    Lawn Care Plus Senior Member
    Messages: 135

    Here are photos of sidewalk with salt but not the problems.

    Tim

    Sidewalk2SaltNoProb1.jpg

    SidewalkSaltNoProb2.jpg

    SidewalkSaltNoProb3.jpg

    SidewalkSaltNoProb4.jpg

    SidewalkSaltNoProb6.jpg