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Another new to ice control question...

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by chtucker, Jan 26, 2003.

  1. chtucker

    chtucker Senior Member
    Messages: 618

    [​IMG]

    Based on those temperatures... What would you do for ice control? I have yet to find any "magic type" product available in Colorado in bags.

    Would you consider sand? Or is just more effective to use de-icer? The sun is intense and ground temps exceed the above graph, but what about shady areas?

    I am concerned that if I buy a single stage machine, that I won't be effective using straight ice melt to reduce slipping.. But I don't have the customer base yet for a V-box or 2 stage tailgate machine.

    Howard
     
  2. Mick

    Mick PlowSite.com Veteran
    from Maine
    Messages: 5,546

    Howard, I found myself in that same dilemna - you need the equipment to get the customers but need the customers (income) to get the equipment. I would agree with earlier posts - don't even consider getting a single stage in your situation. I can only advise you based on my own experience. I decided that the money was in sanding but didn't have the customer base to justify the expense. Two years ago, I took a deep, DEEP breath - bought a good, five year old 3500 flatbed specifically for the new two yard sander and went marketing to customers who would need and want the sander. I was surprised how it seemed that they (those type customers) just seemed somehow to gravitate to me. To the point that I did not advertise at all this year. It helped that my sand/salt supplier was getting out of the plowing/sanding business and referred people to me. Next summer I'm going to develop an advertisement stategy to market to those who want "snow and ice MANAGEMENT" (read pretreating with salting/Magic Salt and sanding).

    Investment for truck and sander - little over $20,000 plus ins/tax/license etc. Based on what I had for potential sanding at the time (one lot) it would have taken at least 30 years to pay for it. Now, I figure I'm down to 10 years. Hopefully, next year I'll add enough that I'll have the investment back from sanding by the end of winter 2004.

    If you just can't get new - maybe you could get a good, used Vbox for a couple of thousand? I think I've seen some in the "For Sale" section. Maybe you'd need to travel some for it, though. Or maybe your area is like mine - lots of snow related items for sale in the paper right now. I still emphasize my advise before, don't waste your time/money on a single stage spreader.
     
  3. BRL

    BRL PlowSite.com - Veteran
    Messages: 1,277

    OK here is my plan for how you should spend your money, based on posts you've made:

    I think we've already determined & steered you toward the purchase of a V-box or at the very least a good 2 stage tailgater. So I think we're past that part of the decision. Now onto what to use. I think you told me you have a skidder. So you will need to steal a few parking spaces from the brewery at the least, or maybe you have another piece of property where you can do this. (Check with your good clients, maybe someone has a great spot in an out of the way section of their lot that it would be OK to store salt at) You will buy a tandem load of salt delivered to the location (or as many tandems as you may need to keep on hand). You will then buy Magic, or one of the other brands of products that have similar effects, in liquid form & spray your piles yourself & mix them. The liquid can be shipped to you in 55 gallon drums usually & you can use the skid to unload it. Then you will load the newly acquired spreader yourself and not worry about which suppliers in your area may or may not have the correct salt for the situation you are dealing with at the time. Good luck!

    Didn't realize how much fun it is to spend other people's money ;)
     
  4. Chuck Smith

    Chuck Smith 2000 Club Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 2,317

    Howard, you might want to consider some of the points mentioned in this article. Scott Zorno is out in Colorado too, and he has found that liquids are the best choice for him.

    http://www.snowplowing-contractors.com/mag_chloride.html

    I recall from the SIMA Symposium in Denver, that liquid prices (MAG and Calcium) were around $0.40 a gallon. Much cheaper than the $1.90+ we pay out here.

    ~Chuck
     
  5. chtucker

    chtucker Senior Member
    Messages: 618

    Chuck,

    Thanks for reminding me about that link. Mag is all the state uses now.

    I was/am fearful because everyone here says liquid takes alot of experience, of which I have none.

    From Scott's article he said he gets 1500 gallon to last 2/3 of the season. I obviously need to talk to the manufacturers, but is he diluting this to his needed concentration? Scott tried various concentrations till the got the desired results. Does he have to spec that with his supplier?

    I can't see myself pretreating the entire lot. It is about 60,000 sqft, based on Scott'ts numbers I would need 300 gallons. I would use alot more than 2000 gallons a year at that rate. Probably just want to treat the higher traffic areas.

    Not to debunk Magic salt, but isn't it just mag treated rock salt? The liquid would work better as a pretreat because of complete road coverage I am guessing? What about as a De-icer which is more effective?

    Liquid would actually be easier for me to handle as I don't have my/a skid steer around.

    Lots more questions...just have to wait till monday to talk to some people.

    Howard
     
  6. Innovative

    Innovative Junior Member
    Messages: 10

  7. nulawndog

    nulawndog Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    GMCO Corporation they are in Rifle Colorado. Contact: Randy Parsons. Office: (970) 625-9100 They have Ice Ban also maybe treated salt
     
  8. chtucker

    chtucker Senior Member
    Messages: 618

    Thanks guys!

    I talked to Envirotech who put me in contact with their local rep. The local rep was so-so in being helpful. Reccommended Ice slicer RS. Couldn't give me a price on a super sack (1ton bag), was going to get back to me. The Redlands Minerals website lists RS as best applied with a V-Box. I asked repeatedly if it would run through a single stage, reciever mounted spreader, He kept saying yes. I am worried about buying 3 tons and not being able to run it.

    Anybody use it before? The state DOT is the only user of it locally.

    I need to stop in and ask some questions.

    IceSlicer® RS
    • Stream-run fine to extra coarse 3/8"
    • Produced for outside storage
    • Used in general highway and street deicing
    • Best applied in a V-box spreader
    • Anti-caking and anti-freezing agents added

    ^ is the description from the manufacturers website.



    Howard
     
  9. CPSS

    CPSS Senior Member
    Messages: 334

    If you could store it inside it might be OK with your single stage. In my experience, if the spec sheet says "• Best applied in a V-box spreader" that usually means that it won't work well in a single stage spreader, By the way, how much for 1 ton?.:drinkup:
     
  10. SnoJob67

    SnoJob67 Senior Member
    Messages: 384

    I have a Western spreader, single stage. You won't have any trouble with that material spreading with a single stage if you buy a unit like mine or similar. The thing that is nice about the unit I have is that there is a small auger in the hopper to eliminate bridging of material.

    If you feel you need a two stage spreader, you need to buy a GOOD single stage, with the exception of spreading mix (another proven waste). Don't let someone convince you to waste your money on a two stage spreader if you are not spreading sand/salt mix! If you are going to buy a two-stage, just spring for the extra money and buy a V-Box.

    When you are looking at spreaders, ask if the unit you are looking at works well for Calcium Chloride and smaller particles. Some spreaders will allow the smaller diameter material to feed out of the bottom of the hopper when you drive down the road. Good luck. Again, don't waste your money on a two stage unless you are positive you will use sand/salt mix, otherwise you might as well throw the extra money it will cost right out the truck window IMO.
     
  11. chtucker

    chtucker Senior Member
    Messages: 618

    $160 a ton for IceSlicer Medium
    • Medium size, 100% screened
    • Produced for use as a packaged deicer
    • Dust-free
    • May be applied by spreader or by hand
    • Dry material, must be stored inside or tarped

    $4 per 50lbs... Less than what I would pay for straight rock salt bagged.


    Not to step on any shoes..... and I only get this impression because of my experience in the field. I would like to bet that their are few main producers of salt additives, Redmond Minerals and IceBan. Redmond Minerals gave exclusive rights to Envirotech to market their product for the snow industry outside of Utah. I am guessing that everyone can tell me up and down how one is better than the other, but from my research this week they use the same techniques. Mag Chloride to reduce the temperature where salt becomes ineffecitive and some sort of corrosion inhibitor. "Magic" I don't know, but the claims and stated ingredients sound very famillar.

    Howard
     
  12. nulawndog

    nulawndog Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    Call Joe Mahoney at Bare Ground Solutions. He has all the info on liquid products. Also the spec for Colorado DOT recuirments. He has all states and local goverment specs. Also, Joe will give you a contact in Colorado that uses about 1MM gallons of Iceban a year. It's not all the same. 888-800-8356.
     
  13. chtucker

    chtucker Senior Member
    Messages: 618

    Thanks for the info! I got quoted .50 a gallon for the same product that CDOT uses (Picked up in Glenwood Springs, Bulk) from the local reps of Iceban that you gave me.
     
  14. BRL

    BRL PlowSite.com - Veteran
    Messages: 1,277

    Very similar... Yet very different.

    Take your search a little deeper & I think you will find that there are more than just 2 companies holding patents for their salt treating technologies. And the different patents means they were scientifically able to prove that their methods\materials were measurably different from the other mothods\materials out there.
     
  15. chtucker

    chtucker Senior Member
    Messages: 618

    Very true.... I just wised they would all keep the names the same nationallly.. I want peoples actual experience, but sometimes it is hard to tell what they are actually using.

    CDOT uses Iceslicer treated salt, and uses Iceban liquid.

    They are using Caliber, M90 I think also??? But not real sure who manufactures those?

    They vary the chemical based on road temps/humidity and forecast, much more scientific then me.
     
  16. hillworks7669

    hillworks7669 Junior Member
    Messages: 24

  17. nulawndog

    nulawndog Junior Member
    Messages: 20

    BRL
    This is very true. There are liquid deicer products out there that have no chemical analysis to support claims. I find you need to follow your State guideline on what product they use. Some will go as far as piggyback other patents. This will keep you out of hot water with DEC, EPA, DEM and others.

    chtucker
    That is a great price. I pay a little more for Iceban. not much more. good luck.
     
  18. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    Howard, you're aware that Magic is a by-product of brewing, aren't you? I'll bet with a little digging, you could find out how it's made and supply yourself with de-icer. How slick would that be?
     
  19. chtucker

    chtucker Senior Member
    Messages: 618

    No... I wasn't:eek:


    We don't use corn. Just pure malted barley like the commerical says. The liquid we get is what we want (extracting the sugars from the barley). The spent grain we give to a farmer to feed his pigs and cattle.... He stopped giving it to the chickens, they stopped laying eggs when on the spent grain diet.:drinkup:

    I surely would like to know what the process is.
     
  20. Pelican

    Pelican 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,075

    I imagine it's a trade secret, but maybe a line to John Parker might point you in the right direction.