1. Welcome to PlowSite. Notice a fresh look and new features? It’s now easier to share photos and videos, find popular topics fast, and enjoy expanded user profiles. If you have any questions, click HELP at the top or bottom of any page, or send an email to help@plowsite.com. We welcome your feedback.

    Dismiss Notice

All Liquid Anti-icing/De-icing Questions Here!

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by VS Innovation, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Member
    from 56063
    Messages: 85

    I know there area quite a few threads started about liquid de-icing, but I would like to start a thread for any questions related to the entire process from mixing, spraying and sprayer setups, to the final result.

    Our company has been using liquid as our only means of de-icing for the last 4 seasons and have a very large knowledge base on the entire process. We have designed and built every sprayer and brine maker we use.

    No question will go unanswered, and I can promise no rude remarks or comments will be made by myself. I am here to give accurate information and to help clear up any unknowns you may have!
     
  2. terrapro

    terrapro PlowSite Veteran
    from MI
    Messages: 3,878

    What do you recommend for average coverage rates per gallon pre treating and post treating?
     
  3. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Member
    from 56063
    Messages: 85

    In our climate (southern mn) where it is not uncommon to have 6-8 feet of frost and temperatures below zero, we pre-treat our accounts at 30-40 gallons per acre, and depending on the snow pack, post treat 80-100 gallons per acre.

    We will also mix liquid calcium chloride with our brine in temperatures below 20 degrees. We have sprayed in -20 degree temperatures and have had water standing in parking lots all day. We have never seen our lots refreeze. The percentage of calcium chloride we use is dictated by the temperatures we apply our liquid in.
     
  4. grasskeepers

    grasskeepers Member
    Messages: 76

    Can I use treated salt to make brine
     
  5. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Member
    from 56063
    Messages: 85

    In all honesty we have never tried using treated salt before. If mixed correctly you should end up with a 90% brine 10% calcium chloride mixture (depending on how the salt was treated). It might be difficult to test the brine due to the fact the density of the mixture will be different with the calcium chloride. The basic hydrometers are only meant to read a straight brine mixture. How much the density would deviate from regular brine would need to be tested. If I get some time I will run a test and measure the difference in density of a 100% brine mixture and a 90/10 mixture using the same hydrometer.
     
  6. JMHConstruction

    JMHConstruction PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,080

    Do you use your liquid on walks? Last year I thought about it, but never really looked into it. It seems like no matter how much I show or train someone, ice melt gets everywhere and WAY too much is applied (had a guy use 27 bags on a property that should have used MAX 8-10 last year). Just wondering how it does on the walks.
     
  7. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Member
    from 56063
    Messages: 85

    Yes, we use almost exclusively liquid on our walks. What we cant get with the boom on our toolcat sprayer we can with the hose reel.
    We typically apply 100-120 gallons per acre of 90/10 (or 80/20 at temps around zero, 70/30 when it is really cold). Our results have been great, and the higher application rates often leave plenty of active brine/calcium chloride to serve as a pre-treat for the next snow.
     
  8. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 285

    We operate almost same as VSI does here in MD, in fact I think we are one of the only ones that use mainly liquids to pre/post treat accounts in our area. We don't get the same super cold temps as they do out there but our 90/10 Hot mix works well after storms right after plowing and clearing sidewalks and leaves customers with much cleaner sites then most others we see around here. I keep telling contractors to grab there backpack sprayers, buy some liquids from us and give it a try on walkways(easy way to not spend a lot of $$ at first), you just might like it and save yourself some $$. We do treat our own salt now with IBG to use on storms where they are calling for Ice, or in cases where there might be a re-freeze. It's our BFH of our tool box :weightlifter:
     
  9. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Member
    from 56063
    Messages: 85

    Good to see you here CJ!

    CJ pretty much hit the nail on the head. Our company is running straight liquid for pre/post treat. We very rarely will pre treat. The only situation we pre treat is if they are calling for ice build up. We are only post treating with liquid. We do not even own a salt spreader. In situations of ice build up we will simply run a stronger mix of calcium chloride and it burns through the ice. The cost is still well under running bulk or treated salt. If we run a 80/20 blend of brine/calcium chloride our cost is around $60 an acre post treating at 100 gallons per acre vs spreading treated salt at well over 100 dollars per ton. The 80/20 is already more powerful than most treated salts on the market and is much cheaper. If we were to run a 70/30 blend in the cold temperatures ( below -10*F) our cost is only $77.50 per acre and we are able to de ice parking lots in temperatures most contractors cannot handle.
     
  10. Bluethumb

    Bluethumb Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    We are really contemplating going liquid. We have one account that just put new concrete in this summer and will only allow us to put calcium or magnesium chloride down for one year. We are having a hard time finding either in bulk for a reasonable price. Can this be done in liquid for a reasonable price?
     
  11. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Member
    from 56063
    Messages: 85

    One of the greatest advantages of liquid (tho there are many) is cost. If you look at the numbers above that I posted a few days ago the prices of applying a 90/10 mixture which is what we use most of the time costs around 60 dollars an acre. If you were to run straight brine at a cost of 25 cents per gallon and at 100 gallons an acre your cost would be 25 dollars per acre to de ice. Most of the time due to temperatures we are forced to run calcium chloride, but it is still much more cost effective than spreading salt. Where are you located? We work with a chain of suppliers for calcium and magnesium chloride, I could try to get them in contact with you.
     
  12. Bluethumb

    Bluethumb Junior Member
    Messages: 17

    SE MN between Rochester and lacrosse
     
  13. SnowMatt13

    SnowMatt13 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,535

    You say that you had excellent results at -20 with your product but what was the pavement temperature?
     
  14. CPSNM

    CPSNM Junior Member
    Messages: 3

    Hello,

    I am looking at going to liquid de-icing this year and have a question regarding salt brine.

    Obviously when using straight rock salt to treat an area there is a lot of residue left behind. When using rock salt to make brine does this residue still occur?
     
  15. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 285

    Are you asking about residue in the Brine maker or residue left over on the lot after you treat it after a storm?
     
  16. CPSNM

    CPSNM Junior Member
    Messages: 3

    Sorry, I am referring to the residue left on the lot.

    If the answer is yes, is it possible to make other type of brine that will not leave a residue?

    Thanks,
    Rafael
     
  17. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 285

    Answer is No, minimum residue left on lots. Remember that the salt is already in brine form and ready to work when you are applying it. Even with Calcium added to the brine your lots are night and day cleaner then dumping rock salt after plowing. One of the reasons why we have happier customers :)
     
  18. Duncan IN

    Duncan IN Member
    Messages: 36

    I take care of 4 Large Box Stores, we have issues with the floors turning white from customers tracking in the salt. Have you noticed any tracking inside stores when you apply Sodium Chloride in a brine solution? I want to be able to reduce the tracking to better serve my customer.
     
  19. 86 CJ

    86 CJ Senior Member
    from MD
    Messages: 285

    Everything tracks in some way, deos'nt matter what product you use. The difference is that liquids can be mopped up quickly or wiped up easily inside store front entrances, where granulars are all over the place, so you are vacuuming, sweeping and mopping. Our customers that are worried about floors and nice entrances getting ruined get sidewalks treated with our Magic IBG brine with lower abrasion(chemical) on most surfaces.
     
  20. VS Innovation

    VS Innovation Member
    from 56063
    Messages: 85

    The ground temperature on the pavement was below zero degrees Fahrenheit. I do not recall exactly the number, but a few degrees below zero.

    The attached images show a similar day, where the state highways were ice, neighboring parking lots were ice and snowpack, ours was bare pavement.. The temp at the time of the images according to weather underground was -4*f. We applied an 80/20 blend of calcium chloride and salt brine at 8am, these images are at 10am. The other properties shown had been salted with rock salt.
    Obviously the sun being out helped as well, but beginning of February in Minnesota, there is not alot of solar energy.

    IMG_2169 (1).JPG

    IMG_2168 (1).JPG

    IMG_2166 (1).JPG

    IMG_2162 (1).JPG

    IMG_2158 (1).JPG

    IMG_2159 (1).JPG

    IMG_2161 (1).JPG
     
    western w/lml likes this.