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28V super slow hydraulics???

Discussion in 'Sno-Way Discussion' started by UglyTruck, Feb 7, 2007.

  1. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Howdy all,

    I am new to the site, just registered today and I have some questions for anyone else that owns a snoway v-plow.

    I have had my plow for just over 2 years and have not been happy with it since day one.

    I have had it back to the dealer 3 times (and he came to me once) my 2 biggest complaints are the speed of the hudraylics... a full 12-14 seconds from vee to scoop or from side to side.

    the second complaint is the huge power drain that this unit creates..

    as I said, I have had it back to the dealer several times and everything checks out... they tell me that everything is "within specs"

    I recently (last week) sent a nasty e-mail to sno-way and they were not much help (but they were very polite)

    They are the ones that refered me to this site.
     
  2. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,609

    A second battery would be a good place to start.
    Get two 1000cca batteries.

    Where is the ground for the plow hooked up to?
    Ground it to the same place the Alt is grounded to.
    Make sure your electrical connections are clean and tight.

    Did you change the fluid and clean the screen this past fall?
    If you did what did you use for fluid.

    Next grease the hinge.


    Welcome to plowsite....
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2007
  3. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Thanx for the reply

    To address your suggestions. first let me explain that this plow has been on 2 trucks since I bought it new and it has always been this slow... the first truck was/is an 89 f250.

    I did have dual batts in it and was told origonally that the batteries were the problem. so I upgraded to dual Optima yellow tops ($400) there was no change.... I managed to injure that truck badly enough that I upgraded to a 2001 ram 2500 with a cummins...also with dual batteries.

    I have had other plows in the past and am a firm believer in dual batteries.

    as for the rest of your suggestions.... I have greased the hinges as best I can, I have not changed the fluid but have decided that I need to do so. I will check the ground location out tomorrow.

    I do have another question if i can pick your brain.... what is the lowest temp fluid that I can safley run. I noticed today after hooking up the plow that for the first 10 min or so it ran much quicker than normal (It sat in the heated garage last night and ran quicker with warm fluid)
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2007
  4. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,609

    Basher and the sno-way guys will love me:waving:

    I think you should flush the system out.
    Some say use this or use that. I hear kerosene is good and that Meyer's makes a product that works good or just use some hydro fluid for this.

    Clean out the reservoir and screen.

    I use Boss fluid in all of my plows, it is good down to -40 or use a quality hydraulic fluid with a AW/ all weather rating.

    Do not use atf...

    Sounds like you have the power to run the plow.

    Questions? Ask away, we even entertain opinions..lol.
    There a lot of die-hard sno-way guys hear but there mostly on in the early morning..

    I hear you guys got some snow this year?
     
  5. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Yeah, we finally go some and both times I was on the phone screaming at my dodge dealer so i could get my truck back from the shop....but thats a whole nother cup of coffee...

    I am gonna post a copy of the e-mail that i sent sno way tech so that you (and everyone else ) can read it.... I was fairly disgruntled and they were suprisingly
    well-mannered in reply.

    I appreciate the info and advice... I have been plowing "Professionally"...translation......for money.. for only 3 years and every time out i learn alot.

    I have been grumbling about this plow for almost three years now feeling like I screwed up by buying a brand that was not popular around here. anyway, thanx again for your advise ... I'm gonna go cut & Paste that e-mail now.
     
  6. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Grab a fresh cup of coffee....this is a longwinded read...



    Here is the origonal e-mail that I sent to sno way:B]

    What I have is more of a complaint than a question. When I was
    deciding
    > what plow to get I did my research and decided on the 28v plow for my
    > truck. the biggest problem that I have is the extreme slowness of the
    > hydraulics... "Fastest in the industry" my a$$. that is an out and
    out
    > lie. I have complained to my dealer and they tried to help...they ran
    > pressure tests on all lines ...they called the snoway tech line and
    were
    > told that the speed of my plow is normal and within specs...12-20
    > seconds from side to side is by no means fast....and vee to scoop is
    > just as bad.
    >
    > When it is time to replace this plow I will NOT be replacing it with
    > another sno-way... the down-pressure is nice but not nearly as
    effective
    > as advertised.
    >
    > Just my 2 cents
    >
    > Stew Hodge
    > Owner
    > Hodge Home Maint. Inc.


    They recieved it , bounced it around internally, and than replied

    Mike and Andy,
    > Does our V really take 12 seconds to go from one angle to the other?
    I
    > don't have the experience you two do but this sounds sort of pokey to
    > me.
    > Steve

    Steve,
    >
    > I would not disagree with Stew, our hydraulics are slow on the v
    series.
    > I know it has been said that we are going to re-design this series in
    > the future but maybe it's worth looking into some of the things we
    know
    > we have to improve on before the redesign. Speed could be one of the
    > things that may be as simple as a pump change.
    >
    > Mike



    See my comments above. I have not actually tested this yet. When we
    > get testing the v-plow again, follow up with me to see that I answer
    > your question.


    Stew,
    > Here's the response that Mike in R&D gave to your inquiry. I talked
    to
    > Andy, the other tech here. He said that 12 seconds to get from one
    > angle to another is about half the speed he's accustomed to seeing in
    > the V that he uses. I'm thinking that you may have a pump that's
    > binding or a motor that is not up to snuff--or both. It would
    probably
    > be worth your while to have your dealer do some diagnostic work on the
    > plow. Your electrical/hydraulic warranty is 2 years from date of
    > purchase so, if you're in or around that time frame, now is the time
    to
    > get it worked and we would be the ones to pay the bill.
    > Steve



    When I read this I saw RED and emailed back:

    Thanx for the reply but unfortunately, I am about 3 months out of the 2
    year
    warranty.... besides that, I did exactly that when the plow was new and
    on
    my 1988 F-250... I was told at that time that the problem was with the
    truck, I was told that I must need new batteries because what I had
    could
    not keep up with the electrical needs of the plow and that's why it was
    slow.. ...so I replaced the batteries..... I installed dual Optima
    Yellow-tops to the tune of $400.00 and the result was no change in plow
    speed or operation. ....then last year the ford split the front axle
    housing
    and I replaced it with a 2001 3/4 ton Dodge diesel..... when I took it
    to my
    dealer to have the new mount installed I complained about the speed
    again
    and that is when the tech went thru everything looking for problems....I
    was
    told then (when within warranty) that everything was fine and that there
    is
    no way to speed it up. I was in the office with the tech when he called

    Sno-way tech and we all spoke on speaker phone. We were told that there
    was
    no way to speed the motor or pump up and that installing larger lines
    would
    have no noticeable effect. .... It is now a year later, the plow is
    still
    just as quick as a ******** snail and NOW I am being told that I may
    need a
    new pump and motor???? ....

    I am past the point of believing that there is any solution...
    It
    is a 2 hour drive for me to get to my dealer and I cannot afford the
    time or
    the hassle of going up there on the assumption that there might be
    something
    wrong with the pump or motor when I was up there a year ago and
    everything
    checked out just fine....

    I know what you are thinking... "But that was a year ago and there
    may be
    a problem that developed in the last year" .... I don't buy it... this
    thing
    has been this slow since day one.. It acts no different now than it did
    then
    ...

    I am sure that you are frustrated with me at this point and wondering
    why
    I am just now contacting you... well that is simple... I tried to do
    everything thru my dealer.... the only reason I even sent you an e-mail
    in
    the first place is that I saw an advertisement for your plows that
    talked
    about the speed of the Hydraulics and I got pissed off.

    I thought that I did all of my research before I bought the plow in
    the
    first place... the only thing that I could not do was "Test Drive" one.
    I
    made the mistake of believing the advertising.

    So let me give you my consumer feedback on this product: 28V series

    Power Plow.

    I think that all of the theory is very sound..... but
    the
    reality (for me) is

    1) the downpressure makes hardly any difference, it is not nearly as
    effective as the advertising makes it sound. It is no better at
    backdraging
    than a conventional gravity plow.
    additionally, the electrical requirements of the downpressure system
    drain
    the batteries down to near dead very quickly
    making it impractical to use for an extended period of time. (like

    trying to scrape a packed parking lot)

    2) the hydraulics are slow beyond belief.

    3) the center tower setup, while undoubtedly stronger, is not
    practical.
    it does not allow the snow to "Flow" past the tower when angled to the
    side,
    the snow dams up
    against the center tower, builds up, and ends up spilling
    back
    over the leading edge. resulting in another required pass to clean up
    the
    trail off.

    4) the design of the plastic center shoe leaves a huge trail from the

    center of the plow unless in the full scoop position. You have to make
    so
    many additional
    passes to clean up the "center trails" it makes you want to
    scream
    (and sometimes, at 3 in the morning, on your 12th cup of coffee and your
    2nd
    pack
    of smokes it does make you scream... scream and yell and say bad
    words cuz you have been up for 27 hours and just wanna go home!!!)

    5) I am still waiting for the super nifty wireless controller I
    ordered with my plow. ( one of the top 3 reasons I decided on a
    Snow-way)
    I found out after it was installed that it had not come in, I was
    told
    that it would be in in a couple of weeks.
    I found out later that it was only in the beta testing stages
    when
    I ordered my plow but my dealer had been told that it was an available
    option. at least, that's
    what they told me. (I was also told that it was included in my

    purchase price and I would be receiving it as soon as they arrived)...I
    am
    still waiting.

    6) I love the Stainless Steel Skins. They look as good today as the
    day I
    bought the plow. the powder coated parts however are another matter
    entirely.
    I have some experience with painting and powdercoating.. and
    while
    powdercoating is one of the best ways to apply paint to bare metal and
    also
    affords
    superior abrasion resistance, if the parts are not degreased and

    cleaned first the powdercoat does not stick. I lost several very large
    areas of paint the first
    day that I plowed.

    7) The lighting sucks..... the dual signal bulbs are great but the
    forward
    illumination is a joke.

    8) This is by far one of the best looking plows on the market. if it
    worked as good as it looks I would be a happy customer for life.

    All in all, I am not one of those customers who's letters you
    are
    gonna post on your website.

    Perhaps I simply got a lemon.... and for the sake of
    your
    companies reputation, I sincerely hope so.

    I personally do not think that I will ever recommend a
    sno-way
    to anyone, at least not a v-plow. I did find out a couple of days ago
    that
    one of the large plow companies near here (65 + trucks owned &
    contracted)
    is getting one of your v-plows and one of your straight plows. in
    addition
    to these they are getting a new boss power vee , and 2 new Blizzards 1
    speedwing and one powerplow. He is gonna send his guys out with the
    new
    stuff and see what is truly better under real world plowing conditions.
    I will be interested to see what he
    outfits
    his new trucks with next year.



    I am sure that you are sick of my longwinded (& sometimes
    incoherent)
    ramblings so I will sign off with one final comment.

    If you guys truly want feedback from your target demographic (me
    and the guys i get drunk and talk plows with) then I will give you some insight as to
    what
    I/we would consider to be the "Dream plow"

    here are a few features that if all combined in one plow, assuming

    that they could all actually work as well in reality as in theory.
    would
    make up our dream plow.

    stainless steel blade
    power vee
    full breakover in vee or scoop
    power wings (like the blizzard)
    hydraulic downpressure (that truly makes a difference)
    skid feet that are height adjustable from in the cab.
    HID Lighting
    secondary cutting edge on back side of plow that would be utilized when
    backdragging.
    Fast hydraulics
    a partridge in a pear tree


    sorry again to be so longwinded


    Sincerely
    Stew Hodge

    Hodge Home Maintenance Inc.




    And finally, their reply:


    Stew,
    Thanks for your detailed response. I appreciated your choice of
    terminology and phraseology. I again forwarded it to marketing and R&D
    folks within the company.

    As for posting your commentary, you're probably correct in thinking that
    it won't be on our "testimonial" button. However, if you wish, you
    could visit www.plowsite.com and post it there. Lots of folks have
    Sno-Way commentary at that location--both positive and negative. And
    the feedback is sometimes really helpful--to both customers and
    companies--in developing deeper insight into problems and sticky
    situations.

    Thanks again.
    Steve
     
  7. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,993

    The Farmer is right about fluid. I don't have the issues you're complaining about with my Vee, so i think you have an problem child. Has anyone questioned the fluid before? What Fluid is in it?

    There has never been a wireless control for the vee plow. You should take this up with your dealer. I haven't even heard hints about a wireless V control.

    Did Steve or Andy go though the set-up on the plow with you? If the blade is not properly adjusted at installation the edges will not contact properly.

    Do you have deflectors on the plow?

    Your down pressure is ineffective? Does the front of the truck lift when you engage the dp?

    Do you have the Fenner or Monarch Pump system?
     
  8. scottL

    scottL PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,603

    I would love to hear a resolution to this issue. I'm in the market for both a new truck and plow. I've used sno-way for 10 years now and it has been spot on. However, with 10 years of plowing I also learned that having a scoop or bucket would cut my time and frustration down in half. Heck I even built removable sides that create a bucket - simply awesome except getting out of the truck. A v-plow sounded like the ticket. sno-way or boss..... New Chevy, New Tundra or Ford...... :dizzy:

    ( btw - when ever my plow slowed down it was time for a flush and fluid changes. This only happened twice in ten years. )
     
  9. vwovw

    vwovw Senior Member
    Messages: 190

    i love my v. and yes its slower than my straight blades. but thats how v's work..... slower. All v plows are slower then there straight blades.
    by the way if you need some new scraper edges get a hold of me. I can save you some cash.
     
  10. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Basher thanx for the reply In answer to your questions...

    What fluid: I would guess that it had snoway fluid in it from the factory but last year I watched the tech at my dealers shop add sno-way brand fluid. unless they are using something they buy in bulk and putting it in sno-way containers...Clear fluid right?

    Setup: No I never spoke to snoway regarding the setup of my plow... after the first day out I grabbed the book and took it to a friends bodyshop and went thru all the setup steps inside where it was nice & warm amd where I had a good flat floor to check the blade angles....this did help a bit but the center shoe has never scraped or dragged worth a $h(t.

    Fenner or Monarch Pump: I do not know. I will find out and post later

    Downpressure: yes it lifts the front of the truck but not like I think that it should... I feel that it does no more than take some of the pressure off the truck... i also feel that alot of the downpressure is burned up taking the slack out of the plow frame. I am not saying that it does not work, I am saying that it does not work as well as they advertise.

    Yes there were hints that a wireless controller was avalible for the V-plow.... it states it on the advertising DVD that snoway sent me as well as in the advertising brochure that i got when I first started looking that it is an avalible option. I am looking at it right now...copyright 2004- SW2004-9717052
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2007
  11. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,609


    V plows are slower?....

    I have a straight plow that is still trying to get into the v position.
    boy, it's taking that plow for ever.

    It should only take a couple seconds to go from ^ to v.

    Basher,
    warming up?
    It got to 5 above yesterday and that felt like a heat wave;)

    Entertainment:jester: .............lol:waving:
     
  12. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    I gotta agree with Snow farmer on this one... I have watched the city guys here with their boss and western v-plows... you could just about play hockey with them things...

    I realize that it is not an apples to apples comparison since the boss and western use single acting rams and return springs but they are super quick.
     
  13. hydro_37

    hydro_37 PlowSite Veteran
    from iowa
    Messages: 3,790

    I have a V blade and it is slower to angle then a straight blade. DO NOT try to angle both sides at the same time and each side will move alot faster. Moving both sides puts alot of drain on the battery. The downpressure will not lift the truck much, it puts enough pressure on the blade to make it backdrag better. There is a center plow skid that you need to adjust for better scraping. VWOVW has some great prices on cutting edges and he has a Steel center piece to replace the rubber one from the factory. :drinkup:
     
  14. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Hydro 37,

    I only run my skid shoes on 1 drive out of 36 accounts that I plow. that is not the issue. but thanx for the advise

    as far as running both wings at the same time I do realize that it runs much slower when doing both at the same time.. I also think that running only one wing at a time is damn near impossible with the newer style "double joystick" controller. I can see where it would be alot easier to run the wings indipendently with the older rocker switch controller.

    Besides... does anyone really think that what they really meant was


    FASTEST HYDRAULICS IN THE INDUSTRY (as long as it's not a v-plow and you only run 1 wing at a time)
     
  15. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Basher... In answer to your earlier question... it is a monarch pump.


    When did they switch to the monarch??...I remember talking with my dealer right after i bought the plow. he provided me with an exploded view booklet and parts list.

    He told me that in his experience most guys that plow have the ability and desire to work on their own stuff so he tried to supply them with the ability to do it easier.. this book covered my serial # but it is not the correct pump.. the book shows the old style pump and valve body while my plow is actually fitted with the new style. when I pointed this out to him he seemed suprised that there had even been a pump change.

    also (and mabey I should have mentioned this earlier) the first day that I had the plow back I had issues with it... they delivered my truck and plow and I took it home and unhooked it. later that night i went to hook it up and the power cable flopped into the reciever pocket. when I started lifting the plow into position it cut its own power wire and shorted to the frame... everything wend dead.. I got out to go see what happened.... it was dark out and I could not see what was wrong.. all of a sudden I started hearing a sizziling noise and I just knew what had happened...the power was dead shorted to the truck frame and the water was boiling off the pump body(it was raining that day)

    I grabbed the power cables and started yanking them till they came out of the pocket.. they were cut clean in half... I called my dealer the next day and he appologized..he said that the tech who installed the plow did not teather the cables back like he should have and that he would drive down and replace the cable... I told him that he could just mail it and i would do it. he said that he needed to come down anyway because the factory had called and my plow had been assembled with "the correct downpressure ram but the wrong lift yoke" and that this would cause the plow to be difficult to mount and dismount.

    He drove down the next day (2 hour trip) and replaced the cables and the lift yoke

    when he was at my place working on the plow I expressed concern about the short and its effect on the electronics.. he said not to wory that everything was fine. I noticed later that the joystick seemed to work opposite of what i was used to on my old plow...joystick left angled the plow to the right...forward made it vee.... back made it scoop...I figured out with the help of the wiring diagram that the installing tech had put the wires into the plug wrong. swapped them back and then it started operating correctly.


    I also remember him saying that the monarch was the new style pump and that he had not had much experience with it yet.... what I am starting to wonder is if i got some sort of a bastardized plow that is a conglomeration of old style and new style v-plow???
     
  16. SnoFarmer

    SnoFarmer PlowSite Fanatic
    from N,E. MN
    Messages: 8,609

    The rest of the story.. lol...

    I would be looking at your motor.
    This explains the power draw.

    I would replace it with a new one or you could try installing some new brushes first.
     
  17. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Do you think that Sno-way would be of any help with this since this has been an ongoing issue from day one??
     
  18. basher

    basher PlowSite Fanatic
    from 19707
    Messages: 8,993

    What wires did you swap?

    Some of the early smo-1 pumps had the angle hoses improperly installed. the solution is moving hoses not wires.

    the serial numbers souldn't conflict.

    What is your serial number?

    Do you have a silver control plug or a black plastic control plug.

    I'm unaware of the lift "yoke" needing replaced. We have had some inversed but not that needed replaced. Once I have your serial number I'll look for TB on your unit.

    Snofarmer is right if the motor shorted there could be brush issues.

    I have no control or influence with snoway concerning coverage on your unit.

    Does it have three pins in a triangle shape or 2 straight across from one another?
     
  19. UglyTruck

    UglyTruck Senior Member
    Messages: 210

    Basher:

    The wires that I swapped were two of the 3 pins in the blac plastic control plug in the cab.... I do remember my dealer having me check the hose routing to see if they were installed backward...they were not.

    as I recall, an please understand that this was 2 years ago and i am running on memory here, the control wire that runs from the front of the truck to inside the cab..the one that you plug the plow into on one end and the controller into at the other end.(just so we are clear) .. that wire comes from the factory with the screw-loc connector wired on one end only...this is to allow for easier routing in the engine bay and only needing to drill a small hole in the firewall. the other end has to be installed by the tech doing the install.

    as I recall the 3 wires are in a triangle configuration and we determined that the center/top pin was correct and the 2 side pins were installed backwards. we determined this by tracing all wires (by color) to their correct solenoids and voltage testing to confirm.



    The lift "yoke" as i refered to it is the steel H-bracket that the "Kick-stand" bolts to the side of.

    I have the black plastic controller hookup



    My plow mounts with 2 pin across from each other. it is not one of the older 3 pin mounts. the pins are fully removeable however and not like the current production ones that auto latch.


    My plow #'s are as follows:

    Date purchased: 10-21-04

    Date installed: 10-21-04

    Power Pack Serial # 28VD100000

    Controller Serial # JWV100048

    Blade Model# 28V 9'-1"

    Blade serial # 109C101175

    Auxillary light serial # (Space left blank)

    Subframe # (Space left blank)

    Pump Serial # 2173130039


    as far as the serial #'s not crossing correctly, I am looking at the service parts manual that he gave me ...it says that it is for serial #'s after 28d100000
    I have never been able to use it for anything because it is not for my plow
    all of the pics and views are of an older 3 pin mount v-plow and the older 3 toggle switch "LOBO" controller


    The wiring diagrams that I used for all of my diagnostics are the ones located in the "owners installation and operation manual" that came with the plow

    thanx again for all of your help.... I have a feeling that by the time this is all over I am gonna owe you an evening at the pub.

    You too Snowfarmer...how close are you to Bimidji???
     
  20. toby4492

    toby4492 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,513

    UglyTruck,

    Here is a link to the manual for the plow that you have.

    http://www.snoway.com/service/Owner Manuals/97100969b.pdf

    If I were you I would submit an email to Sno-Way technical service and explain your situation to them. I will also send them a link to this thread and provide any input that I receive from them.