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14 acres of pavement

Discussion in 'Ice Management' started by KissMyWake, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. KissMyWake

    KissMyWake Junior Member
    from indiana
    Messages: 26

    I maintain a large industrial building that just took in a new tenant. The problem on my end is that the union contract calls for all areas to be salted. There is about 14 acres of pavement that needs to be addressed. I am not now, nor do I intend to be able to store or spead this much salt.

    The contract does not specify salt or liquid.

    What should I look for in a sub, as far as equiptment requirements and what kind of pricing bids should I expect for an area this size?
     
  2. RichG53

    RichG53 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,135

    Picturesssssssssssss !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  3. KissMyWake

    KissMyWake Junior Member
    from indiana
    Messages: 26

    Pictures of what?? Pavement?? You like those nice straight yellow parking lines don't you?

    I guess it take all kinds....
     
  4. salopez

    salopez Senior Member
    Messages: 873

    can't you keep salt on site?

    if so buy yourself a vbox and find a sub with a skid loader if you dont have one.
     
  5. KissMyWake

    KissMyWake Junior Member
    from indiana
    Messages: 26

    I really don't want to get into the investment of a vbox for one property and the storage needed. DNR is already all over my butt because of some stupid eviromentally protected retention pond on the property. The last thing I need is to have to build some crazy storage facility.
     
  6. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,699

    You should bow out..........based on your own admission you are not ready, nor do you intend to be ready to service this property.

    Also if you can't (or won't) make an investment in one v-box, the client is talking to the wrong contractor.
     
  7. KissMyWake

    KissMyWake Junior Member
    from indiana
    Messages: 26

    I already maintain the 30 acres of turf and landscaping. Plus the 14 acres of snow. I don't see the point in investing in another piece of equiptment that I only need on one property. There is ten times the area to be salted as I do anywhere else. The v-box would never leave the one job. I want to sub this out. I just wanted to know what type of equiptment you would recommend, so I know what to look for in a sub. And if you had some pricing guidelines to give me a heads up.
     
  8. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,699

    IF you get this job, it's an opportune time to grow your business. Do you have no aspiration to grow, improve, or take on more business?

    Also I suggest you have the ability to back up your subs WHEN they fail to perform. They will break you faster than they will make you........that should be part of your plan. :nod:
     
  9. KissMyWake

    KissMyWake Junior Member
    from indiana
    Messages: 26

    I completely understand your points. Remember a couple things, I am in Indiana, not michigian. We can have winters down here where you plow 2 times and salt less then 5. I am already adding 2 plow trucks this year and need to make some other investments and do not plan on going that far out on a limb. Thats why 90% fail. They over-invest and fall flat on there face. In addition with they way commercial real estate is going to be the next couple years, it would not be wise to invest more than i need to for this property.

    Btw, I have the contract. No bid.
     
  10. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,699

    Even more the reason to invest in a salter........you will make more ROI than plow trucks based on data. With effort you will find subs that will be more than happy to do your plowing for you.

    Congrats on having it! :salute: Now just get them to agree to a multi-year commitment. You are not alone......we here in Michigan can relate on the flat commercial real estate market.

    And pardon me, but no I cannot share pricing with you. Our markets and rates are quite different.

    Good luck to you sir. :drinkup:
     
  11. 2COR517

    2COR517 PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 7,115

    I think you are in a tough spot here. So you could invest several thousand dollars in equipment, and maybe salt 4 times? I don't think you are ready for this job, nor willing to get ready. And I appreciate your conservative approach to growth. I know this is a big account for you, but you have to acknowledge what you can do, and what you can't. A fellow could have a farm tractor with backhoe, but that doesn't mean he's ready to lay 10 miles of sewer pipe. Not trying to be difficult here, just realistic. Subbing out plowing is one thing. Tell them when to start, and you can see when it's done. Salting is much different. You need someone you know and trust very much. If say put down 5 tons, you need to know 5 tons are down. Are there specs as to how much salt to apply, numbers of time to salt, etc? I agree that on site storage is the way to go, lease a bobcat for the season. If you have a good relationship with the property owner, maybe they will help you out. And you could look at this way - you may not profit from salting for a year or two, but if you can get into the business on someone else's dime, then that's good. I really think you need at least a one ton with v-box to do this job. You said you do some other salting, what are you using for those jobs, and could you do it with a larger truck? And remember, you don't have to buy new. And older 2WD one ton, and slightly used box should be fine. And you still need a backup to call when things go wrong. That can happen with brand new equipment too.
     
  12. salopez

    salopez Senior Member
    Messages: 873

    Agreed you are not ready for this. you should not sub out salt...you should be salting all your sites and subing out plowing. you will make more money with that one salter then the rest of your trucks! look at the big picture.

    talk to the epa folks out there and ask them what you need. here in md i was told as long as i have plastic underneath and a tarp on top i am golden...so whats that 200-300 bucks?

    what are you paying for salt? 70-100 per ton? and charging what 150-450 a ton to apply it plus hourly rates of equipment? and whats your ap rate 500-800 lbs per acre?

    your climate is simalar to mine so hopefully i am close, but prices vary.

    figure you have double the properties other then this one so we will round it to 30 acres...
    and lets say you go with 500lbs per acre. thats thats about 7.5 tons per ap figure pre treat, post treat and atleast 2 partial aps per storm so figure so about 37 tons of salt and say 12 hours due to mins. so $7400 in salt and $3000 for equipment minus 2960 in salt costs for net rev. of $7440

    yep thats a bad investment for a salter...oh figure that 5 times $37200...yep bad investment...heck i could move to indy for that gig...who is the property owner?
     
  13. Camden

    Camden PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 6,598

    Nice post, Sal. However, do you think there's a chance the original poster lives in an area where salt can't be sold for the prices you're quoting?

    I know in my area there aren't many companies who are willing to pay a premium for de-icing material. Big box stores, doctor's offices and banks seem to be the only ones who are okay with it.

    You need to give the guy some credit. If he's already clearing the 14 acres he's obviously not a fly-by-night operation. I agree that he should be salting the area himself and the reasons he gives for not doing it seem pretty weak but it sounds to me like he's got his mind made up.
     
  14. salopez

    salopez Senior Member
    Messages: 873

    I completely understand that prices in maryland might be different that is while I put in a price range and simply took the median for my example.

    I guess I should have said your prices might vary rather then simply prices vary.
     
  15. Sleepy_Sentry

    Sleepy_Sentry Junior Member
    Messages: 3

    Sounds like a tough situation. But I agree with everyone else- don't sub out. Maybe you should hope for a warm winter.
     
  16. RichG53

    RichG53 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,135

    Pictures to see what the lot looks like Islands, Open space, Square lot, Odd shaped ETC......Then more help can be given !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not yellow lines DUH !!!!!!
     
  17. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,046

    I have all large sites and if I billed out 37 ton of salt for 1 storm on my 14 acre site I wouldn't be doing it any longer, also all my sites are 0 tolerance. I do agree though on him not subbing out salting, just not quite sure how he's going to bill out 37 ton/storm.
     
  18. salopez

    salopez Senior Member
    Messages: 873

    jd dave
    please re-read my post.

    I used and assumption that he has 30 acres...and that he would pre treat, post treat and at least 2 partial treatments after the storm for a total of 3 full aplications at a rate of 500 lbs per acre.

    not one single ap.
     
  19. JD Dave

    JD Dave PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 11,046

    Sorry my bad, I missed the double part. :drinkup:
     
  20. KissMyWake

    KissMyWake Junior Member
    from indiana
    Messages: 26

    Alright, so I got a call today from the property manager to let me know that he just found out that the semi drivers aren't part of the union so I don't have to salt 2/3 of the lot on a regular basis. Know that I am down to around five acres I am probably going to handle it myself.

    Just have one question, is 500 lbs an acre an accurate amount of salt for an acre??