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1" trigger, no fall policy

Discussion in 'Commercial Snow Removal' started by BHLC, Mar 20, 2014.

  1. BHLC

    BHLC Member
    Messages: 43

    We are getting into a few larger commercial accounts for 2014/15 and are bidding one now. They have specs of 1" daytime trigger and 2" nighttime trigger, no fall policy 24 hr facility. Trying to figure how many visits I should plan on for salt and snow. 80" avg seasonal snowfall. Was thinking 40 plow, 30 salt 30 walkways. Thoughts? Thanks.
  2. Whiffyspark

    Whiffyspark 2000 Club Member
    from SOMD
    Messages: 2,402

    Well we usually salt more than we plow

    Also salt sidewalks more than plowing.
  3. BHLC

    BHLC Member
    Messages: 43

    On a 6" storm we plow 3-4 times and salt 1-2 times
  4. Whiffyspark

    Whiffyspark 2000 Club Member
    from SOMD
    Messages: 2,402

    Gotcha I thought you meant 40 storms, 30 etc

    This is why I like billing hourly or seasonal lol

    For seasonal I would go by how many storms you have rather than just inches
  5. SnowGuy73

    SnowGuy73 PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 24,868

    Sounds like a pita.
  6. Longae29

    Longae29 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,954

    Sounds like a great account.

    What's a no fall policy? You aren't allowed to fall?
  7. BHLC

    BHLC Member
    Messages: 43

    It's a big money acct, no fall means if they have a client slip and fall I'm scr#wed!
  8. Burkartsplow

    Burkartsplow PlowSite Veteran
    Messages: 3,248

    We have some rehab and dialoysis centers and this year we plowed 32 times and salted 50. We had 84 inches of snow so far. You are always going to salt more then you plow on accounts like those. Great money makers but a lot of liability and when in doubt salt and salt a little more. If that is what they want then they have no problem paying for good reliable service. Just take. Look at your last 5 seasons of snowfall and how many times you plowed and salted and throw in a few extra just in case.
  9. TCLA

    TCLA 2000 Club Member
    Messages: 2,696

    Care to share their no fall policy verbiage?
  10. grandview

    grandview PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 14,609

    They fall,they fall nothing you can do about their walking abilities.could put down to much salt and could loose their footing on it and fall. I wonder if you can find out how many claims a property has had. Call centers are the worst,lower class of of people looking to make some fast cash.
  11. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,450

    Hmmmm, no fall policy. I'm assuming that refers to only snow\ice.

    I also assume their expectations are unrealistic. It's winter for crying out loud. Stuff happens.

    I'm with TCLA, I'd love to see that clause.
  12. B-2 Lawncare

    B-2 Lawncare Senior Member
    Messages: 219

    Just what I was thinking as well.
  13. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,450

    Several years back we were notified of a slip and fall at one of our medical facilities. Checked our records, NWS, etc and we hadn't serviced that day and no snow had fallen that day.

    Turned out the elderly gentleman (older than TCLA even) had decided to attempt to climb over the curb that was packed with snow to get to the entrance instead of using the black and dry parking lot\sidewalks.

    Obviously, nothing ever came out of it.

    And THAT is exactly why I say a "no fall" policy is BS. And if it's truly that ironclad, only an idiot would sign it. Then their insurance company would probably drop them.
  14. oarwhat

    oarwhat Senior Member
    Messages: 156

    Off topic but I find it interesting that this winter most parking lots were snow and ice covered due to no salt. I didn't hear any whining or complaining. Everybody just seemed to take it in stride as a bad winter.
  15. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,450

    Weird how that happened.

    Actually, we plow a hospital, they do the salting most of the time. The guy that runs it actually understands the concept of snowing too hard\too cold\whatever at certain times and that zero tolerance is just unrealistic.

    He'll send out an e-mail to the powers that be that states exactly that. Snow rates are too heavy to expect black and wet or too cold to effectively keep pavement black and wet or whatever.

    There's a whole lot more folks that need to grasp this concept. Including whoever the OP is talking about.
  16. Italiano67

    Italiano67 Senior Member
    Messages: 638

    I will tell you from experience that if you bid it according to their tight bare pavement blah blah blah specs it will be way more than what they think it should be. When there are sites that want that type of service time and material is the only way IMHO because if they want to keep calling ( sometimes irrationally) for service then everytime I go there the meter will be running. On a seasonal job you can run into problems quickly. Sure you can figure so many plows, salts etc but how many times during a storm do they expect you there. I had a Toys RUs that called me one time right after I got home from salting the entire lot to come back because they needed salt. I get there and one cart corral was sloppy inside. guess what? It was a per application so they got billed again. If they want to be ridiculous they will pay dearly. On a seasonal you lose control over what should and shouldn't be done.
  17. Longae29

    Longae29 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,954

    Why are you guys so anti-zero tolerance? Lazy? Not bidding enough? If you bid to adequately service the property what's the problem? Keep pushing the snow and dropping the salt until its done, then salt some more. Keep plowing salting and clearing the walks throughout the duration. First to last flake.

    Would you rather a 2" trigger with no salt? No thanks.

    Ive always been of the philosophy give them the maximum service they are willing to pay for, I'm in this business to make money.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2014
  18. Italiano67

    Italiano67 Senior Member
    Messages: 638

    I'm definitely not against bare pavement policies. What I am saying is that a lot of times they say what they want and when you come back with a fair bid it comes in way higher than what they want to pay. If its T&M they will pay for what they demand as they go. Another way of saying it is the phrase sticker shock. Remember that most people have no idea of the time and cost of keeping the conditions bare. So I say if you want what you want then be prepared to pay as you go. I would bet it wouldn't be too long after the first bill their tune would change on what they want. Speaking from experience.
  19. Longae29

    Longae29 PlowSite.com Addict
    Messages: 1,954

    I agree. Some bids and sites a quick conversation or email is all it takes to make sure you are on the right page, others is going over dozens of scenarios to make sure that expectations are agreed to, in writing before bidding/agreeing to the contract. But when you find the ones that have high expectations and deep pockets....
  20. Mark Oomkes

    Mark Oomkes PlowSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,450

    I'm not anti-zero tolerance. I am anti-zero tolerance 100% of the time. Nov 1 through Apr 15. It is flat out unrealistic, at least if you are in a lake effect area.

    And, as Italiano stated, no one really wants to pay for true zero tolerance.

    Maybe it is lazy too. Silly me, after working 18-20 hours a day, I do like some sleep.

    Pretty simple: I normally plan for 4-6 hours of plowing per route. So, when lake effect kicks in and doesn't shut off for say, a week, after plowing the route the first time, there can be anywhere from 1-12" of additional snow from when we started. Now, on a lot that takes 4 hours to plow, there can be another inch or 8", or more, even with a dedicated piece of equipment.

    Not sure about you, but I can't afford and my customers are not willing to pay for enough equipment and manpower to start keeping a lot clean when it is snowing at 1-2" per hour and it can go for an hour or a week. Or, those off times that we get 3-4" per hour.

    Zero tolerance is just not realistic 100% of the time.