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  #1  
Old 11-18-2012, 08:47 PM
concreteguy concreteguy is offline
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plow question

I have a '99 Mitsu Fuso and it has a Uni-mount plow but it has the frame of an ultra-mount with a uni-mount conversion welded to it. My question is that, I do believe the wiring is also for an ultra-mount with two plugs, is this correct or did they just wire it to work. What I would like to do is to get the wiring harness for the truck, in an isolation style, and mount an ultra-mount to it. I would cut the conversion off and then mount to the existing frame.
Would this work, and the truck isn't an FG but everything has been on this truck for 4 years now. Also, would I just have to get a 2 wire ultra-mount and us the existing harness

Thanks,Tom
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:49 AM
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If it has two plugs at the grill it is an original uni setup. That is one plug for motor power and a second plug for the lights and controls, probably a 12 pin. This system has relays too.

It's going to cost you around $1000 for the parts. You need almost all the truck side, iso module, control harness, headlight harness, all but the power cable and relay. Then on the plow you need to pull the wires from the headlights and hyro unit and replace them with two harnesses. Sounds like a Frankenstien plow to me as it is, is it really worth trying to make it right?
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:18 AM
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Ultra mounts were two plug for the first year or two. If the truck has an Ultra mount frame on it, it sounds like it was originally a two plug Ultra mount set-up. A two plug Ultra would plug right in, or you could convert a three plug Ultra mount plow to two plug, cheaper than changing the truck side over to three plug.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:42 PM
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Converting the three plug plow to the 12 pin two plug would certainly be cheaper but if you want the isolation module rather than the relays, as come with the two plug, then you havce no choice but to go with three plug. All isolation module systems (three and four port) are three plug except the very new multiplex setup, but that's a whole other animal.
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2012, 09:44 AM
jasonv jasonv is offline
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An isolation module is just a box with relays in it.... nothing special.
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:47 PM
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That's true, basicaly a box with relays. But it is a sealed box, with all the relays pre-connected to either three or four simple plugs. Look inside a TV sometime, it's just a box with a few chips, resistors and capacitors too, but they sell them assembled so you don't have to, just like the isolation module. Spend some time on the phone talking laymen through troubleshooting an old two plug system with six relays, then you will appreciate the three port isolation module.
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2012, 07:55 PM
jasonv jasonv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishnick View Post
That's true, basicaly a box with relays. But it is a sealed box, with all the relays pre-connected to either three or four simple plugs. Look inside a TV sometime, it's just a box with a few chips, resistors and capacitors too, but they sell them assembled so you don't have to, just like the isolation module. Spend some time on the phone talking laymen through troubleshooting an old two plug system with six relays, then you will appreciate the three port isolation module.
You're speaking to an engineer.

And I'll tell you that the insides of a television are CONSIDERABLY more complex than a simple (trivial) isolation module. Whether it comes "assembled" or not is irrelevant, you still need to plug in the wire. If you want to do it right, you even need to TRIM the wires to fit your vehicle (otherwise you have a mile of coiled wires all over the place).

These isolation modules are also impossible to repair once even a SINGLE component is damaged (like an integrated circuit), whereas an individual relay is trivial to replace.

Now for plow control, the only components that may actually *need* any form of isolation, are the parking and signal lights. This is because it places extra load on the circuit that may exceed the circuit's capacity. NOTHING ELSE on a plow adds extra load to any existing circuit on the truck.

Headlights do NOT need an isolation module, since they are switched (either by relay or mechanically), if the circuit gets shorted out, the fuse will pop, your headlights will go out whether you have an isolation module or not. The plow controls don't need an isolation module since they operate on an entirely separate circuit. ONLY needed on the park/signal lights. That makes THREE relays required, for park, left, and right signals.

So take your 3 generic relays, tie one side of all three coils to ground. Tie the other side of each coil to the input circuit (truck's existing park, left, and right signals), tie one of the switched pins of each coil to BATTERY POSITIVE (via fuse, say about a 5A), and the remaining pin to the plow lights.

Alternatively, you can avoid the need for an isolation module altogether by putting LED bulbs in you plow lights and fusing their inputs with a small fuse (like 0.5A). If you want to protect your truck's headlight fuses, take a look at what size fuses are running them now (probably 4x10A), select next size down (7.5A), and put those at the start of the plow headlight circuits. That way if they short out, they'll take out the second fuses in line and leave the truck's headlights functional.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concreteguy View Post
I. What I would like to do is to get the wiring harness for the truck, in an isolation style,
Whoa there Mr. Pinky Ring. I think we have lost sight of the originator's request. The man says he wanted to know what was involved in converting to and isolation module.

PS... you are not the only engineer on this site
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Last edited by mishnick; 11-20-2012 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishnick View Post
Whoa there Mr. Pinky Ring. I think we have lost sight of the originator's request. The man says he wanted to know what was involved in converting to and isolation module.

PS... you are not the only engineer on this site
He also said this...

Quote:
Originally Posted by concreteguy View Post
I have a '99 Mitsu Fuso and it has a Uni-mount plow but it has the frame of an ultra-mount with a uni-mount conversion welded to it. My question is that, I do believe the wiring is also for an ultra-mount with two plugs, is this correct or did they just wire it to work. What I would like to do is to get the wiring harness for the truck, in an isolation style, and mount an ultra-mount to it. I would cut the conversion off and then mount to the existing frame.
Would this work, and the truck isn't an FG but everything has been on this truck for 4 years now. Also, would I just have to get a 2 wire ultra-mount and us the existing harness
Thanks,Tom
Just sayin'....
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2012, 10:20 PM
concreteguy concreteguy is offline
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Well, thanks for the info. What I was wondering if somehow I already had the correct wiring and the person who hooked the plow up modified it to work for a unimount. Not sure how the ultramount to unimount conversion works in the first place. When this was installed I do believe they had the ultramount kit for this truck and thought it was installed and they were able to get the unimount to work. How does the ultra to uni conversion setup work
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:23 AM
jasonv jasonv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concreteguy View Post
Well, thanks for the info. What I was wondering if somehow I already had the correct wiring and the person who hooked the plow up modified it to work for a unimount. Not sure how the ultramount to unimount conversion works in the first place. When this was installed I do believe they had the ultramount kit for this truck and thought it was installed and they were able to get the unimount to work. How does the ultra to uni conversion setup work
There really isn't anything to convert. Assuming that both sides are "good", the only difference is the physical shape of the plugs that are supposed to connect them together. You just need to adapt the plugs to each other. If the plugs on the two sides don't look the same, I suggest replacing the plugs on the PLOW SIDE, since that is easier to work on. Just make sure that the outputs on the truck side harness produce the proper signals as needed for the various functions the plow is capable of.

Trace the wiring on both sides to understand HOW it works, and adapt them together. You should understand the system's wiring in order to be able to repair it if something goes wrong.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:27 AM
jasonv jasonv is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mishnick View Post
Whoa there Mr. Pinky Ring. I think we have lost sight of the originator's request. The man says he wanted to know what was involved in converting to and isolation module.

PS... you are not the only engineer on this site
Nor did I claim to be. Just pointing out to you that I *am* someone who has a very complete understanding of these trivial circuits. Your language was inappropriate for the target, I was simply correcting your misconception regarding who you were talking to.
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Old 11-21-2012, 07:58 AM
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basher basher is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concreteguy View Post
How does the ultra to uni conversion setup work

The uni to ultra conversion is just black iron. you have the uni-mount wirng system, the only reason they used the conversion kit was the unavailability of uni-mount vehicle frames.

So I understand you want to use a ultra mount on this truck and wonder what changes you have to make?

remove the uni mount black iron, install the wiring for the style ultra mount you want to use. Don't try shortcuts, custom harnesses, LED bulbs, etc. Nothing worse then trying to figure out what was done and for what reason at 2am in the ice and snow. Leave the custom BS for the owner/operator without the time restraints that come with commercial plowing contracts. We repair in 20 minutes what it use to take 30 minutes to even access and identify let alone diagnose and repair. The system will be easy for the truck mechanics to work on as the truck, the system stays intact and can be removed easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonv View Post
An isolation module is just a box with relays in it.... nothing special. The plow controls don't need an isolation module since they operate on an entirely separate circuit.
But it's a lot simpler than the bundles of relays they replaced and even they (iso-modules) have to much sacrificial draw for the trucks with electric power steering (Ford F150, Dodge 1500.) and tatting relays as a favorable system is like praising the design of a Jag XK E type rear brakes. The engineer knew in board calipers were better but wasn't field savvy enough to include an access panel. The result, 19 hours flat rate to do a rear brake job.

And the new DD products with the multi-plex (fleet flex) controls DO need the iso-module
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Last edited by basher; 11-21-2012 at 08:04 AM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 08:06 AM
nealybird nealybird is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by concreteguy View Post
Well, thanks for the info. What I was wondering if somehow I already had the correct wiring and the person who hooked the plow up modified it to work for a unimount. Not sure how the ultramount to unimount conversion works in the first place. When this was installed I do believe they had the ultramount kit for this truck and thought it was installed and they were able to get the unimount to work. How does the ultra to uni conversion setup work
your original post was a little confusing, but I think your truck was probably set up for a unimount plow, using an ultramount mount w/ an ultramount to unimount adapter stuck in it. the adapter itself should just pin in (and therefore removable in the summer), and should never have needed to be welded on. maybe someone made their own or something? now that I think about it, there's no 99 mitsubishi mount showing up in quick match, so they probably fabricated the whole thing, or took an ult/uni adapter and built homemade brackets to attach it to the truck.
also, unimount plows all originally had relay wiring, which would have two plugs at the grill. It would have little square relays wrapped in black tape and stuffed behind the truck headlights somewhere. if you are wondering if you can get an ultramount plow that is already set up for relay wiring to replace the unimount plow - yes ultramounts were originally relay wiring too, so there are a few around like that, and most others could be converted by changing the plow lights.
hopefully that helps you out some.
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Old 11-21-2012, 09:39 AM
jasonv jasonv is offline
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But it's a lot simpler than the bundles of relays they replaced and even they (iso-modules) have to much sacrificial draw for the trucks with electric power steering (Ford F150, Dodge 1500.) and tatting relays as a favorable system is like praising the design of a Jag XK E type rear brakes. The engineer knew in board calipers were better but wasn't field savvy enough to include an access panel. The result, 19 hours flat rate to do a rear brake job.

And the new DD products with the multi-plex (fleet flex) controls DO need the iso-module
NOTHING requires an isolation module, unless you make errors. There are two purposes of an isolation module; to protect against excess current being drawn from the vehicle's existing circuits, and to prevent short circuits in the "add-on" components from taking out the pre-existing circuits on the vehicle. As I've described, both of these purposes can be accomplished withOUT the use of any kind of circuit isolation at all simply by adding appropriately sized fuses at the start of the add-on circuits, and not overdrawing the vehicle circuits. A headlight bulb draws just over 4 amps, yet the vehicle's circuit is designed and protected to supply 10 amps. If you switch that circuit from the vehicle's headlights to plow headlights, simply install a 7.5 amp fuse at the point where you tap in. If the plow light shorts out, it will pop the 7.5 amp fuse, leaving the pre-existing headlight circuit INTACT and FUNCTIONAL, further, it will never be overloaded.

For signals, plow lights seem to always include incandescent signal bulbs. These may draw more current than the vehicle's signal circuits are able to supply, and in some cases even interfere with the correct blinker operation. THIS IS WHERE isolation modules are actually used. As I mentioned, LED bulbs draw negligible current, and you can use an extremely small fuse a the point where you tap into the vehicle's signals, a fuse that is less than the excess capacity of the signal circuit. Just like the headlight circuits that can supply over DOUBLE the required current, the signal circuits are the same, so you can install a 0.5 amp fuse to protect that circuit while supplying adequate power to LED bulbs.


Isolation modules are ENTIRELY UNRELATED to anything to do with electric steering. Those vehicles with electric power steering may be affected STRICTLY by the high current drawn by the PLOW PUMP MOTOR, which is NEVER isolated. If the current drawn by the plow pump motor is so much that it prevents proper operation of the electric power steering, then something entirely different than circuit isolation is required; CAPACITANCE and/or RESISTANCE. In this instance, what you must do, is reduce the current drawn by the plow pump motor. There are up to FOUR modifications that work together or in any combination to prevent the plow pump motor from overdrawing the vehicle's electrical system.
1) Increasing the alternator output capacity.
2) Decreasing the current required by the plow pump motor (different motor design).
3) Limiting the maximum current available to the plow pump motor through installation of an inline resistor.
4) Adding CAPACITANCE to the plow side of the circuit. After the limiting resistor, a DIODE (one-way electron gate, prevents current back-flow into the vehicle's electrical system), after the diode, either a small battery or a large capacitor to supply the high current required for motor startup. The resistor prevents the plow pump from drawing more than the vehicle can supply, the capacitor supplies the high current for motor startup, and the diode prevents other electrical systems from stealing that high current from the capacitor.

Last edited by jasonv; 11-21-2012 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:48 AM
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You sound very convincing, of course the auto manufactures disagree, why only the Snoway EIS system which uses NO relays, modules or switches and does not require LEDs is cleared for use on the Ford F-150 with electric steering and they (Ford) state the issue is sacrificial draw. There is a simpler way it's just not the way you describe.

Of all the points you keep clinging to are all good but not easily adapted for every vehicle or easily installed/maintained. Try maintaining a warranty if you have cut in to the vehicle's wiring harness. On today's vehicles tracking everything from voltage use to tire air pressures one inadequately grounded accessory can cause major computer issues, Talk to anyone who has had to have a Dodge computer re flashed because of trailer electrical issues and they will warn you being to creative can cost you money.

Yes you can fuse and relay things, add LEDs, stay away from any of the new DD products that are going multiplex, splice wires and add switches. You can spend hours adapting and building harness that only you understand and can diagnose and repair quickly but why use relays or switches at all when there are better systems like the Snoway EIS out there.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:41 PM
jasonv jasonv is offline
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You sound very convincing, of course the auto manufactures disagree, why only the Snoway EIS system which uses NO relays, modules or switches and does not require LEDs is cleared for use on the Ford F-150 with electric steering and they (Ford) state the issue is sacrificial draw. There is a simpler way it's just not the way you describe.
Do you even know what 'snoway eis' system does? LMAO, no relays or switches, because instead of putting a nice clean relay or switch on it, you are quite literally UNPLUGGING the truck's lights and PLUGGING IN THE PLOW LIGHTS... which is, guess what, EXACTLY the same thing that a switch or relay does. They just put a fancy name on what amounts to PLUGS. The "cross from one side to the other" part is completely meaningless. Electrons don't care what side of the truck they go to, and there is nothing the truck can do to detect this. They also talk about relay "delays".... where do they envision putting relays that they will introduce a resistance delay to the circuit? Tell me, what has a bigger delay; flipping a switch/relay? Or unplugging and replugging two big plugs on the front of your truck?

Quote:
Of all the points you keep clinging to are all good but not easily adapted for every vehicle or easily installed/maintained.
Actually, every single thing I've suggested will FOR SURE work WITHOUT QUESTION, on EVERY SINGLE VEHICLE EVER MADE NO EXCEPTION. As far as install and maintain, EVERY plow wiring harness has to be installed and maintained, there is literally nothing different about the install or maintenance of the system I've suggested, which by the way, is a trivial adaptation of any basic switches-only-no-relays plow wiring harness.

Take this one for example, your most BASIC plow light harness;
http://www.arcticsnowplows.com/engli...800037-AXV.pdf
If you look on page 6, you can see the whole system diagram. Now the big switch that they label as a "12 pole switch" is actually a 4 pole double throw switch (3 pins per pole). The switches handle the headlights and take the four power source lines (left-low, left-high, right-low, and right-high) and connect them either to the TRUCK headlights, or the PLOW headlights. You know, just like you would get if you unplugged the wires and plugged them into the other lamps, but with the convenience of a switch and being a lot more protected from the elements than it would be hanging off the front of your truck.
** now alternatively, you could put a 4P2T relay (or 4 much more readily available 1P2T relays) under the hood, then you only need to run 1 wire from inside the cab to control it rather than 12. Again though, no delays here, since the relay isn't jumping back and forth. Its either on or off with the ignition, not jumping back and forth. Now if you want to protect the vehicle's existing headlight circuit, what you do is very simple; at the SWITCH, put a 7.5 amp inline fuse onto both reds and both black wires. Yeah, right at the switch itself. If your plow light harness shorts out, flip the switch down and the truck lights are back on. Throw the plow on the back of your truck, or if you can, set it very close to the ground so the truck lights can get over it and head back. Repair the short and replace the burnt fuse and you're back in business.

Now if you look closely, you'll see that there are three other wires for each side that need to be spliced into the vehicle's harness. Park-left, signal-left, park-right, signal-right, and of course, a negative for both sides. Well, I suppose there is no need to splice the negatives, just put the clip under some bolt head.

Now in these, I can think of one place where you could end up with a switching delay if you used a relay; if you're running incandescent bulbs on the plow and the load is greater than the circuit can supply (very probable), then you might be inclined to do something like a self-powered relay. The way something like this would be wired is through the use of an SPDT relay. You would CUT the signal line and feed it to the COMMON AND the COIL. NC pin to the truck's signal, NO pin to the plow signal. The other side of the coil would be connected to switched ground. This circuit would work fine on most vehicles, but you certainly would introduce a switching delay that could be detected. In fact, it would register as a blip of low resistance on the circuit preceded and followed by normal resistance. The only reason you would wire the relay in this manner is because you don't have to think about whether or not the relay is powered (and drawing power) when that signal is not powered. What I mean by that is if instead, you connected the input signal to common ONLY, and switched POSITIVE on the coil rather than negative, there would be no switching delay and it would work fine on all vehicles, BUT, if the other side of that switch went straight to battery, then if you left the switch in the "plow" position, the coil would slowly drain the vehicle's battery. Obviously the solution to that is to source power from an accessory circuit that is switched with ignition. Now we are into the realm of tracking every single vehicle's wiring for an appropriate power source, which all vehicle's have, just not in the same place -- this gets to be too "custom", which is why they don't do it that way.

Now the easiest solutions are to either use a physical clicker switch, which would involve running ANOTHER 12 wires to a 4PDT switch and have the IDENTICAL effect as plug and replug as 'snoway eis', or to simply leave this nonsense out ALTOGETHER and simply don't overdraw the circuit. No two bulbs are identical, and even things like the temperature can affect resistance. This is why the vehicle's lighting circuits are built to be able to handle a bit more current than the bulbs are expected to draw. Blinkers are, however, quite sensitive. You are aware of course, that a typical blinker will detect a failed bulb when the circuit resistance gets too high and go into fast blink mode. Similarly, too low of a resistance can alter the charge rate of the circuit and affect the rate of the blinker. Sometimes too fast, sometimes too slow (or not at all). Some newer vehicles with digital blinkers monitor the circuit resistance directly and detect switching delays or out of spec resistance (high or low) as malfunctions. This is what we need to get around. So, we need to add more bulbs onto the circuit without *significantly* altering the circuit's resistance, and without adding a relay (which will add a switching delay, the potential to drain the battery, or require excessive custom wiring and maintenance difficulty -- yeah, that thing you're complaining about). The best solution for this is just to use readily available LED bulbs. They have extremely high resistance (low current), so will not affect the current on the circuit beyond the malfunction threshold.

So, to install those led bulbs, you simply pop the cover off your plow lights, and replace the existing incandescent signal bulbs with LED.

And if you want to add fuses to protect the truck's signal circuit, add them inline between the blue or yellow wires on the plow light harness (see pdf I linked to above), and the vehicle's signal circuit.

*** OF COURSE, adding the fuses goes way beyond the 'snoway eis' wiring that you keep raving about, which does NOTHING to protect the vehicle's wiring from shorts in the plow. If you want to beat the 'snoway eis', just directly install the harness in the pdf above, and substitute the signal lights with LED. I guarantee that it will work fine with the vehicles that you're worried about.

Quote:
Try maintaining a warranty if you have cut in to the vehicle's wiring harness. On today's vehicles tracking everything from voltage use to tire air pressures one inadequately grounded accessory can cause major computer issues, Talk to anyone who has had to have a Dodge computer re flashed because of trailer electrical issues and they will warn you being to creative can cost you money.
That's nice, guess you won't be installing any plow lights or controllers on your truck, because there is NO WAY to do so without interfacing with the existing system. Some hack who goes nuts modifying his wiring without understanding the implications SURE CAN cause major problems, and I definitely don't recommend going random on your wiring harness.

If you actually bothered to understand what I'm suggesting, I am NOT suggesting to go crazy and manufacture a completely custom wiring harness or something that would be at all difficult to maintain. VERY VERY MINOR adaptations of ANY conventional wiring harness. Simply adding inline fuses at the points where you HAVE TO splice into the circuit, and switching the BULBS to ones that draw very little current. These two trivial concepts completely eliminate the need for complex isolation modules or relays, and are compatible with ALL vehicles. EVERY SINGLE ONE. It is too bad that the 'snoway eis' can't be easily adapted to add fuses to protect the truck's light circuits. Unfortunately, any short in the plow circuit will blow the same fuses that current flows through to get to the truck's lights. From this perspective, 'snoway eis' is significantly inferior. It also exposes wiring responsible for the vehicle's regular lighting to the elements and vandals or dumb kids... oh, look its a plug, lets unplug it! If you don't happen to notice that, then you might see red and blue lights in your mirror.

Quote:
Yes you can fuse and relay things, add LEDs, stay away from any of the new DD products that are going multiplex, splice wires and add switches. You can spend hours adapting and building harness that only you understand and can diagnose and repair quickly but why use relays or switches at all when there are better systems like the Snoway EIS out there.
The 'snoway eis' is just a big paragraph of text on their website that uses fancy sounding language to say NOTHING. And for your information, you need to get into the vehicle's wiring harness to install it. There is no way around this.

Edit: well actually, there is ONE way around this; slap photoresistors on all of your truck's lamps and use those to control your plow light circuits. That would COMPLETELY isolate your plow harnesses from everything except the battery terminals themselves. I can't think of a good way to detect the difference between high and low beam though, so you will probably have to be satisfied with low-only unless your truck is one of those that has separate lamps.

Last edited by jasonv; 11-21-2012 at 01:45 PM.
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Old 11-21-2012, 01:45 PM
nealybird nealybird is online now
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holy crap. sorry concreteguy, looks like your thread is waaay jacked. lol
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Old 11-21-2012, 02:40 PM
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SMH... Shaking my head.
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Old 11-21-2012, 03:04 PM
jasonv jasonv is offline
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holy crap. sorry concreteguy, looks like your thread is waaay jacked. lol
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