CATERPILLARS COMING TO A FORD DEALER SOON!

[9FT.PILES]

NO MORE power "STROKES" INT. HARV. 250s 350s THE CATS R CUMMIN ! CATERPILLAR #1

[John DiMartino]

Not anytime soon,Navistar has a contract that has 7 yrs left im i remember right.If you want a real diesel"no glow plugs" in your Super duty,you have to get it overseas,where the SD has Cummins B3.9 as an engine option in the F250-550 SD,the B3.9 is the 4 cyl version of the 5.9 in dodge pickups.

[GeoffD]

Navistar has the contract to build the new 6.0 Powerstroke as well.

Geoff

[plowking35]

9' piles I tols earlier that the cats were in the 650 and up trucks. If you cant get the info right, dont post at all. You have already been removed from this site once, and trust me, it wont take much to kick you out again.
Check your story before you run your fingers.
Dino

[bob]

Forgive me, I'm no wrench head. How does a diesel engine work, withput glow plugs?

[plowking35]

Bob
This is by no way a very detailed version of how a diesel runs, but here goes.
Unlike a gas engine, a diesel works on straight compression, meaning that when the fuel is compressed and that causes the fuel to ignite. In a gas engine the spark plug ignites the fuel.
The glow plugs are there for cold starting only. They pre warm the clyinder, and that helps the diesel fuel ignite when the engine is cold.
Dino

[bob]

Dino, I understand every thing that you said. However in Johns post he says," a real diesel with no glow plugs". How would you start a "real diesel" in the winter?

[John DiMartino]

To start a real diesel,just turn the key.If its real cold,plug it in,or hit it with a shot of ether.Direct injected truck engines do not need glow plugs.The reason to have a diesel is reduced maintance,these glow plugs always give trouble at some time,and go bad randomly,then you have an engine that starts hard ,runs rough and smokes bad til they all fire eventually.The controllers go out frequently too,since they pull upwards of 50 amps while heating.I know Ford uses 6 volt glow plugs so they heat up quick,this makes them fail prematurely.The Cummins in the Dodge pickup is the only truck you can hop into and just hit the key,and it starts perfect.It does have a wait light,but its just an air intake preheater,not neccesary,in fact its Dodge spec thing,same engine in a motorhome of freightliner doesnt have it.

[cat320]

Well my case backhoe does not have glow plugs and i start it right up in the winter just remember to plug it in.

[thelawnguy]

Glow plugs are used in diesel engines which were originally designed as gas engines (both the PS and 6.5 have roots as gassers) to heat the air to get going when cold, the real diesels use what amounts to a toaster grid in the intake to heat the air to get it started.

[Edited by thelawnguy on 01-17-2001 at 08:56 PM]

[plowking35]

UHHHHHH
Sorry Bill, The 6.2/6.5 was designed by Detriot Diesel for GM and never was a gasserFor more details see the
http://www.62-65dieselpage.com
Please check the facts first.
Glow plugs have no bearing as to an engine being a real diesel or not.
The old 6.9 started out as a gasser way back when, but the 7.3 is all diesel.
the new 6.6 duramax, also has glow plugs, and that in no way shape or form was ever a gasser. One side point, is that they are not needed unless air temps are below 0 degrees.
I have seen many smaller diesels of Japan origin that have glow plugs, and they are true diesels as well.
Dino

[thelawnguy]

"Please check the facts first.
The old 6.9 started out as a gasser way back when, but the 7.3 is all diesel."

Last I checked the 7.3 is the same engine as the 6.9 just stroked or bored out not sure which. Ad man copy notwithstanding. The addition of a turbo does not materially change an engine.

The DD 6.2-6.5 design is not the same engine as the GM 350 Olds to diesel conversion. Both engines were available in GM trucks sad to say.

Fact is, its not a "real" diesel unless its also available in HD applications. IMO its not a "real" diesel unless it has a life expectancy that surpasses its gas counterparts, something both Navistar PS and DD 6.5 cannot do. Ad man hype notwithstanding.

Fact is, the 6.5 is a dog not worthy of a majority market share. At least the PS can boast that. A penny-pinching local FD can get the PS in a med duty pumper if they so choose.

Its a shame that a so-called tech-advanced engine such as the new Izuzu still resorts to glow plug technology. Ad man hype notwithstanding. Im still trying to uncover what this engine really started out as. Ad man hype notwithstanding.


PS: I cant get the link to work.

[KirbysLawn]

Old.....tired.....debate....

http://www.howstuffworks.com/diesel.htm


[Edited by KirbysLawn on 01-18-2001 at 09:32 PM]

[plowking35]

Your points are still not valid.
Friens Linkbelt Excavator uses glow plugs, yet in now resembles a gasser, or would be mistaken for a light duty application.
The 6.2 and 6.5 both are fine for the light duty application they were designed for. In fact my 6.5 will hold its own vs both the PS and the cummins. I have personally used it next to those type of trucks. Now I am not saying I pulled them around backwards, that is not why I bought the truck.
Also I dont drive a med or heavy trcuk, I drive a light truck, and in doing so, I want an engine designed for that purpose.
For what it worth the 5.7 diesel also wasnt a coverted gas engine, it was based on the gasser, but had alot more beef to it. Not saying it was a good idea, just a fact.
Dino

[thelawnguy]

Lol, talk about leading a horse to water...

Dino did you send that guy the info I asked you to?

[suburbanrob]

Ok I'm in the fire now:

One of the reasons for glow plugs is the engines are built for lighter duty cars and trucks. The parts inside the engine are smaller and lighter so the compression ratios are kept down from a "real" diesel. The Dodge engine is probably a better example of a "real" diesel. You can also see it's heavier weight supports this. Heavier pistons need heavier rods, which need a stronger block. Result a heavier engine. Bad for the car and truck people trying to keep the weight down and the resulting higher mpgs.

Some of the "real" diesels have glow plugs if (because) they have pre-combustion chambers. The fuel fires in the pre-cup chamber then spreads to the main chamber. On this type of engine the compression ratios are not as high and the power is less. This is done for lower emissions. These engines may be used in cars or in equipment used in mining.

This is just some basic diesel information.

Rob

[Eric ELM]

You wrote: The parts inside the engine are smaller and lighter so the compression ratios are kept down from a "real" diesel.

What is the compression ratio on a "real diesel" engine. I have never had a diesel truck, but I do have 2 Yanamar diesels. The compression ratio on them is 23 to 1, but I've never heard what the "real diesel" engine ratio is.

Thanks in advance for the reply
Eric

[plowking35]

The low 20's for compression is common for IDI non turbo engines. However with the higher PSI turbos, most engine makers are running around 17-18:1 compression, so that they can increase the turbo boost to the 20 psi range, in fact the larger diesels are running upwards of 30 psi. That way the engine has a longer operating life, and the turbo does some of the fuel and air compression. All this translates to higher hp, more torque and less emissions. All good things.
Dino

[bob]

Thats a good link Ray. I'll have to keep that one!

[suburbanrob]

Eric, I guess Dino covered most of your question. The ratio varies from engine to engine, design to design. If does depend on the engine being natural or artificially aspirated. All the "real" stuff was a little tongue-in-cheek. I guess some are defining real vs non-real by small vehicle engines vs 18-wheeler heavy equipment type engines.

Heck years ago I worked on a 1 cylinder Deutz diesel that was in a sailboat. Hand crank for a starter and all! The engine still had a very heavy piston and rod for a 1 cyl. Of course the smallest diesel I worked on was a Cox .049 engine. Sweet!

Rob

[nlminc]

I thought the glow plugs were really there to give you another opportunity to think about givin your keys to a friend after you've had to many to drink! LOL Personally, I do not know much about diesels, I just drive them.

Chris

[John DiMartino]

Man I started a big controversy over the "real diesel" thing didnt I.I refer to real diesels,as most diesel mechanics do,sorry for the way i described it.The 6.5 is a deisel and designed as such from day one.The problem was they let cost control have their way.Indirect injection is cheap to produce and quiet,and only low injection pump pressures are needed since we use a glow plug to ignite the fuel in a prechamber.Direct injection requires much higher fuel pressure,to finely atomize the fuel so that no glow plugs or assistance is needed to fire up a cold engine.the pumps are much more $$,the benefits are quick staring,more power,much more fuel efficient operation.Downside is $$,and noisey operation,at least up til now,since the new duramax has split,timed fuel delivery,so its quiet up to 2500RPM's where it goes back to single shot and gets noisey like the rest.The PSD is a descendant of the 7.3IDI,which is based on,the 345 IH gas motor,so it roots back to a gas motor,but so little is the same and its beefed up so much,its hardly fair to call it converted,it is proven to be a good engine.

[Shack]

Boy this guy is fart, I mean Smart. Glad to have guys like you here.

[Psyclopse]

The way I see it, if the motor runs on diesel fuel, it is a REAL diesel- no matter if it is a converted gasser, has glow plugs or not, or whatever.

My pushmower has a gas motor, and I don't tell everyone that its not a real gasser.

Sorry, the debate is old, surely there is a more constructive subject matter we could discuss rather than putting down each other's engines or engine choices.

I have one of these 6.2's, and it does what I want, it is reliable, and doesn't cost me a fortune. Maybe I got a rare one, but I am happy with it, so it doesn't appear a piece of junk to me.

It burns diesel fuel, so it's real: brand, size, glowplugs- all irrevelent.